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To: Boogieman
they were always kept separate from the NT and OT by the Catholics themselves

No, they weren't. St. Jerome included them in the OT, they are in the ordinary OT order in the Vulgate and in the Douay-Rheims (the contemporary of the KJV).

More importantly, they were in the Septuagint, which was the Hebrew scripture in common use at the time of Christ. When Jesus Himself quotes Scripture, he quotes from the Septuagint.

The KJV cut the "Apocrypha" out because they translated the OT directly from the Hebrew, and by the time the KJV picked up the Hebrew scriptures, the Jews had rejected these books for reasons of their own (mostly having to do with the mention of eternal life and the Messiah). Luther didn't like them either because of the prayers for the dead.

12 posted on 04/03/2013 4:51:34 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

***No, they weren’t. St. Jerome included them in the OT,****

Jerome wanted to exclude them but was told by the Pope to keep them in.

It is interesting that some other books were written into early Greek manuscripts that we do not consider “scripture” such as THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS.

Some parts were also excluded such as the last verses of Mark although one bible did leave a blank area so it could be added later. It wasn’t.


14 posted on 04/03/2013 5:19:12 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (The murals in OKC are destroyed.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

“St. Jerome included them in the OT”

Wikipedia sez:

“On the other hand, Jerome (in Protogus Galeatus) declared that all books outside the Hebrew canon were apocryphal.[3] In practice, Jerome treated some books outside the Hebrew canon as if they were canonical, and the Western Church did not accept Jerome’s definition of apocrypha, instead retaining the word’s prior meaning (see: Deuterocanon). As a result, various church authorities labeled different books as apocrypha, treating them with varying levels of regard.”


“More importantly, they were in the Septuagint, which was the Hebrew scripture in common use at the time of Christ.”

Wikipedia sez:

“Some apocryphal books were included in the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures compiled around 280 B.C., with little distinction made between them and the rest of the Old Testament. Origen, Clement and others cited some apocryphal books as “scripture,” “divine scripture,” “inspired,” and the like. On the other hand, teachers connected with Palestine and familiar with the Hebrew canon excluded from the canon all of the Old Testament not found there. This view is reflected in the canon of Melito of Sardis, and in the prefaces and letters of Jerome.[3] A third view was that the books were not as valuable as the canonical scriptures of the Hebrew collection, but were of value for moral uses, as introductory texts for new converts from paganism, and to be read in congregations. They were referred to as “ecclesiastical” works by Rufinus.[3]”


Despite the recent attempts by Catholics to paint the Apocrypha as universally accepted before Luther came along and cut them out because of some not so noble motives, it’s simply not true. The books were always a matter of some controversy in the church, from the early days up until the Reformation. It’s just convenient for you to now whitewash those facts in order to have another charge to level at Protestants.


15 posted on 04/03/2013 5:21:50 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: AnAmericanMother
"More importantly, they were in the Septuagint, which was the Hebrew scripture in common use at the time of Christ."

Slight correction; the Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Old Testament, not the Hebrew. It should be noted that it was the Scripture read by the vast majority of the world's first century Jews, most of whom lived outside Israel.

As a side note it was this Scripture that St. Paul referenced when preaching the Gospel to both the Jews and the Gentiles in Asia minor, Greece and Italy. So when the Bereans searched Scripture it was the Septuagint they searched.

Peace be with you

21 posted on 04/03/2013 5:48:30 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

The Apocrypha was part of the King James translation. In fact, it was the first part finished.


38 posted on 04/03/2013 6:38:21 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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