[boatbums]

You had asked me the other day what I meant by the Everlasting Father having an Everlasting Son. I had prepared an answer but FR went down for the rest of the night and I couldn't get it to post. Luckily, I saved the text to a WORD file. I'm glad we are still discussing it. Here is my answer:

I understand what you’re saying but don’t see the logic of it.

Some things of God are not able to be understood by human logic. :o)

One of the names used for Jehovah is Everlasting Father. For Him to BE an everlasting father implies there must be also an everlasting son, else He would not be called everlasting "Father". The word used in Isaiah 9:6 for everlasting is עַד or "'ad" and it means:

1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future

a) ancient (of past time)

b) for ever (of future time)

1) of continuous existence

c) for ever (of God's existence)

The words in Isaiah 9:6 translated as everlasting father is " `ad `ab" with BOTH words being masculine nouns: אֲבִיעַד. The word "everlasting" is used 49 times in the Old Testament and speaks of eternity or forever. Granted, it is used sometimes to mean "from now on", but when used as applying to God, it speaks of eternity - always was, always will be. Jesus is also said to be "from everlasting to everlasting" and it ties back into the everlasting father being the father from eternity having a son from eternity. An eternal father with an eternal son.

One of the many Messianic prophecies is Micah 5:2, which says:

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

WRT Jesus being called "Everlasting Father" (Isa. 9:6), from the Barnes' Notes on the Bible:

The everlasting Father - The Chaldee renders this expression, 'The man abiding forever.' The Vulgate, 'The Father of the future age.' Lowth, 'The Father of the everlasting age.' Literally, it is the Father of eternity, עד אבי 'ĕby ‛ad. The word rendered "everlasting," עד ‛ad, properly denotes "eternity," and is used to express "forever;" see Psalm 9:6, Psalm 9:19; Psalm 19:10. It is often used in connection with עולם ‛ôlâm, thus, עולם ועד vā‛ed ‛ôlâm, "forever and ever;" Psalm 10:16; Psalm 21:5; Psalm 45:7. The Hebrews used the term father in a great variety of senses - as a literal father, a grandfather, an ancestor, a ruler, an instructor. The phrase may either mean the same as the Eternal Father, and the sense will be, that the Messiah will not, as must be the case with an earthly king, however excellent, leave his people destitute after a short reign, but will rule over them and bless them forever (Hengstenberg); or it may be used in accordance with a custom usual in Hebrew and in Arabic, where he who possesses a thing is called the father of it.

Thus, the father of strength means strong; the father of knowledge, intelligent; the father of glory, glorious; the father of goodness, good; the father of peace, peaceful. According to this, the meaning of the phrase, the Father of eternity, is properly eternal. The application of the word here is derived from this usage. The term Father is not applied to the Messiah here with any reference to the distinction in the divine nature, for that word is uniformly, in the Scriptures, applied to the first, not to the second person of the Trinity. But it is used in reference to durations, as a Hebraism involving high poetic beauty. lie is not merely represented as everlasting, but he is introduced, by a strong figure, as even the Father of eternity. as if even everlasting duration owed itself to his paternity. There could not be a more emphatic declaration of strict and proper eternity. It may be added, that this attribute is often applied to the Messiah in the New Testament; John 8:58; Colossians 1:17; Revelation 1:11, Revelation 1:17-18; Hebrews 1:10-11; John 1:1-2.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible puts it as:

The everlasting Father; which does not design any relation of Christ in the Godhead; and there is but one Father in the Godhead, and that is the first Person; indeed Christ and the Father are one, and the Father is in him, and he is in the Father, and he that has seen the one has seen the other, and yet they are distinct, Christ is not the Father; the Son and Spirit may be considered with the first Person as Father, in creation and regeneration, they being jointly concerned therein, but not in the Trinity: it is easy to make it appear Christ is not the Father, but is distinct from him, since he is said to be with the Father from eternity, to be the Son of the Father in truth and love, his own Son, his only begotten and beloved Son; Christ frequently calls the first Person his Father, prayed to him as such, and is our advocate with him, as well as the way unto him; he is said to be sent by the Father, to come from him, and to go to him; and many things are said of Christ that cannot be said of the Father, as his being made flesh, suffering and dying in the room of his people; and the Father is said to do many things unto him, as to anoint him, to seal him, to show him all he did, to commit all judgment to him, and give him to have life in himself as he had: but Christ is a Father with respect to chosen men, who were given him as his children and offspring in covenant; who are adopted into that family that is named of him, and who are regenerated by his Spirit and grace: and to these he is an "everlasting Father"; he was so from everlasting; for regeneration and faith do not make men children, but make them appear to be so; God's elect are children previous to the Spirit's work upon them, and even to the incarnation and death of Christ; adoption is an act of the will of God in covenant from eternity: and Christ is a Father to these unto everlasting; he will never die, and they shall never be left fatherless; he and they will ever continue in this relation; he as such supplies them with everlasting provisions, he clothes them with everlasting raiment, he gives them an everlasting portion, promotes them to everlasting honour, saves them with an everlasting salvation, bearing an everlasting love to them. Some render the words, "the Father of eternity" (s); the author of eternal life, who has procured it for his people, and gives it to them; or to whom eternity belongs, who inhabits it, and is possessed of it, is the everlasting I AM, was before all persons and things, was set up in an office capacity from everlasting, and had a glory with the Father before the world was, in whom eternal election, and with whom the everlasting covenant, were made. The Septuagint version is, "the Father of the world to come" (t); of the Gospel dispensation; so called, Hebrews 2:5 the legal dispensation, when in being, was the then present world, at the end of which Christ came; this is now at an end, and a new state of things has taken place, which with respect to the Old Testament saints was the world to come, and of this Christ is the Father or author; as the law came by Moses, and he was the father of the legal dispensation, grace and truth are come by Christ, the Father and author of the Gospel dispensation; the doctrines of it are from him, and the ordinances of it by him; and he is the father of that state or world to come after the resurrection, the New Jerusalem church state, and also of the ultimate glory.

When Jesus said to the Jewish religious leaders of His day that he is the I AM, that God is His Father, they knew very well what He was saying and they took up stones to stone Him because, "that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33). When I asked you what you believed Jesus to be, you said, "What Paul believed Him to be". This is what Paul said of Jesus, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." (I Tim. 3:16) and "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (I Cor. 2:8)

[count-your-change]

“One of the many Messianic prophecies is Micah 5:2, which says: But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

here are some of the ways other translations read:

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah,out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.” (NIV)

“Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times.” (NAB) A footnote applies this to the Davidic line being old, ancient.

The American Standard Version gives “from ancient days” as an alternative reading for “everlasting”.

But who knows maybe all these translators are closet Arians.

Isaiah 9:6 speaks of what the Son would be called and as the notes you have show he is father in sense of giving life,

“but Christ is a Father with respect to chosen men, who were given him as his children and offspring in covenant; who are adopted into that family that is named of him, and who are regenerated by his Spirit and grace: and to these he is an “everlasting Father...” (Gill)

But then in order to support “everlasting” he goes off into predestination, Jesus was a father before there children.

“The word used in Isaiah 9:6 for everlasting is.. or “’ad” and it means:....c) for ever (of God's existence)”

But since Isa. 9:6 is speaking of the Son and not the Fatherand as the next verse shows “ad” means from a point in time forward forever, everlasting that the Son would rule from David's throne.

In the same sense “ad” and “owlam” is used at Isa. 30:8 to say “forever and ever” of something that has a beginning, a starting point but extending into the future without end.

I'll continue later in the morning.

[count-your-change]

“This is what Paul said of Jesus, “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” (I Tim. 3:16)”

“God was manifest” is a spurious reading that even the Douay Version rightly rejects seeing that the oldest Biblical manuscripts such as Codex Alexandrinus and others as noted below have the correct reading . Codex A shows signs of being tampered with to read “God was manifest” over “He was manifest”.
“In 1 Timothy 3:16 it has textual variant (Greek fonts here) (he was manifested) supported by Sinaiticus, Ephraemi, Boernerianus, 33, 365, 442, 2127...” (wikipedia under Codex Alexandrinus)

When Jesus said to the Jewish religious leaders of His day that he is the I AM, that God is His Father, they knew very well what He was saying and they took up stones to stone Him because, “that thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33

But Jesus showed their accusation was false as he said the term “god” could be said of humans, he has said the was “the Son of God”.
“Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world , Thou blasphemest because I said I am the Son of God ?” (John 10:35)

Translating “ego eimi” as “I Am” at John 8:58 makes a mess of the simple statement Jesus made. Good English must pay attention to the tenses and “I Am” doesn't do that.
Jesus said he existed before Abraham existed or came to be so “I am” is simply the wrong tense, it could better be translated as “I was” or “I have been” .
And a number of translations do just that.
Some may see a connection to Ex. 3:14 but the LXX translates the Hebrew as “I am the one” not just “I am”.
Thus even a blind man, formerly blind man, could say of himself, “I am” without claiming to be God or a part thereof. (John 9:9)