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To: boatbums
The earlier comment was implying that only those who persevere will be saved

It is not just implied:

    Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

    2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with [Him.] If we deny [Him,] He also will deny us.

    James 1:12 Blessed [is] the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

    James 5:11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end [intended by] the Lord -- that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

    Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

If we stay in Christ and do not start to fall away, i.e. we endure temptation (James 1:12) we will indeed persevere through Christ.

I can't help but think we talk past each other sometimes. If you truly believe that you are saved by faith and not by your works

Faith with no action, e.g. prayer, love, charity, is dead and not real. Good works are the form of faith. Anyone who claims faith but does not act on it will not have everlasting life.

Nothing we do can earn our way to Heaven. We must accept the free gift and believe. However, our actions can have the effect of us declining the free gift, e.g. by not believing, not obeying, succumbing to temptation.

That same grace that gifts to us eternal life also enables us to live in holiness and we WILL persevere because it is Christ IN us - the hope of glory.

Not if you reject the gift. It isn't the hope of glory if it is assured.

208 posted on 06/15/2012 10:33:50 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Titanites

Not to butt in, but “hope” in the English can come from a Greek root meaning “anticipation,” as opposed to uncertain outcome. I’m sitting where I can’t get to my language tools, but i’d want to see the original text of the passage in question before assigning any conditionality to it. Just sayin...


210 posted on 06/15/2012 10:56:32 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Titanites
Go back and read all those verses you posted and take off the preconceived conclusions. In Matthew 24:13, "He who endures to the end shall be saved.", you are basing your interpretation of this verse by thinking "endures to the end" means he who obeys and does not die in sin will be saved. But it isn't saying that. You read "will be saved" and think Jesus is speaking of going to heaven, but he isn't saying "saved" here means heaven, you have to ask what is the person who endures saved FROM and what is he ENDURING? This verse is speaking of the end-times and a person going through the Tribulation being saved from death.

In the II Timothy verse, you read "If we endure we will reign with him", the word "if" is also translated "since". So since we endure. It goes back to we WILL endure because of Christ who gives us strength and enables us to endure. A person who is genuinely saved, has received Christ as Savior, believed on Him, WILL endure and he will NOT deny Christ. How can he if Christ is living within him? The Spirit cannot deny himself. If a person truly denies Christ, did he ever really believe in Him?

The James 1:12 passage says, "God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.". I believe God blesses us when we endure trials and temptations, don't you? He empowers us to be able to. Does it say, "you must endure testings and temptations every time or you will go to hell"? No. It doesn't. Tempting and testings "bring perseverance, character; and character, hope". (Romans 5:4) A genuine faith WILL endure testings and will grow by and through them. We are commended to rejoice when we face trials and temptations because it purifies our faith.

So what is the "crown of life"? II Timothy 4:8 speaks about, "in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing." There WILL be rewards given by Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ. There will be soul-winners crowns with stars representing those won to the Lord through our efforts in Christ. How can we NOT love him who first loved us? How can we NOT joyously await His coming? Again, if you are reading into these verses that our works are what merit heaven for us, you are not reading them in light of what other Scriptures say.

Rather than pull pieces of verses out to put them together like a jigsaw puzzle, why not take the whole of Scripture and read these verses in light of what God says. We know that we are saved NOT by righteous deeds we have done but by His mercy. And His mercy and grace are given to us freely which we acquire through faith. When you start with that knowledge, all these other verses fit in properly.

Faith with no action, e.g. prayer, love, charity, is dead and not real. Good works are the form of faith. Anyone who claims faith but does not act on it will not have everlasting life.

No genuine faith will lack fruit. Some more than others, but that's what I'm trying to get across here. We are saved by faith alone, but it is not a faith which is alone, has been said. And it truly is correct. A faith that takes hold, like that seed of the sower WILL produce fruit, there WILL be a change from a life of sin into a life that desires to be holy as Christ is holy. But there is a BIG difference in saying we MUST do good works to be saved. We cannot do works to be saved, we do good works because we ARE saved.

When you say anyone who does not act on his faith will not have everlasting life, that is the wrong thing to say because it implies that actions merit everlasting life and we already know that we are saved NOT by our acts but by faith. He who has no change in his life after conversion and who has no fruit or good works that demonstrate his faith, either doesn't have genuine faith to begin with or God is still working on him. Not everyone changes overnight. Sanctification is a process but justification happens when assent of faith is made. God sees the heart, we can only look at the outside. Only God knows if a person's faith in genuine. We all know people who seem to have many wonderful works for God, but they turned out to be wolves in sheep's clothing. We are told, "By their fruits you shall know them" but people get tricked all the time. God never gets tricked. He knows every secret thought and inclination of the heart.

Don't be so quick to pigeonhole a piece of a verse and assume it says something. Read the whole passage and understand who is being spoken to and what it is about. Don't jump to conclusions whenever a certain word comes up and just assume it means something that it very well may not. Have a good night.

212 posted on 06/15/2012 11:38:48 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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