Posted on 06/13/2012 2:59:02 PM PDT by Gamecock
****He had a body that was an image of his bioplogical body, but it was no longer a biological body.
It was a body that could travel through the stone walls of buildings. It was a body that could travel to the realm of God the father. Neither of those things were possible with a flesh and blood body.*****
Now, whom am I to believe, you or Jesus?
Luke 24:38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
Luke 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them.
****We can be pretty confident that those who were born disfigured or missing limbs will have bodies that are whole in heaven. *****
We don’t know that, though I imagine that many hope that.
But, is the disfigured or broken body seen that way by God, who sees us only with love? The disabled body is certainly difficult here, but will those difficulties exist in heaven?
We are told there will be no tears, no hunger, no thirst in heaven. And do we not hope there is no pain, no fear, no jealousy, no malice?
..... I wonder how Peter knew it was Moses and Elijah standing there with Jesus? They didn’t have a Polaroid.....
LOL, we sometimes think alike. I have wondered the same.
*****Nobody will be “ugly” or “homely” there, I don’t believe.*****
Does God see us as we see ourselves or others as we see them? We do not see with the same love as He do we?
I have said before, I believe that we will see each other as God sees us/them.
By the time I got done remodeling, the only things that were saved were the basic structure (the framing, which also got major repairs), the foundation, and the roofing...
One could argue that it is the same old house.
There is no argument, it is the same house. You did not tear down and haul away the basics. You did not dig up the foundation and pour a new one. You began with what you had and improved it.
It really is a perfect metaphor for our bodies, which are new and fresh and good and through age and abuse and sinfulness becomes decrepit until it passes away. But then the Lord comes and raises it up and restores all that newness and adds glory to it. But, it is still the same body with which we began.
>> “Now, whom am I to believe, you or Jesus?” <<
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Since he and I are in full agreement on this, what is the question?
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You aren't alone in this! I think it is simply human nature to constantly ask "Why?".
I think you are right, at least in part. But for me it is far more complicated than that.
Aside from a natural inquisitiveness, I have always captained my own ship. I have always had a fierce sense of American liberty and independence, which probably is cultural and familial in me... My family have been business owners and entrepreneurs for generations... ALL_of_them. So the natural has been redoubled with what has been ingrained. Add to that an old-skool Dutch heritage of what is proper and orderly, and one will inevitably get a screaming A-Type personality of the highest order.
I hasten to add that not all of that is 'bad' exactly - Without that 'control-freak' thing, I would not have been able to have run my businesses, or to have employed all those good folks. I would not have learned independence, thrift, discipline, that ability to drive forward, to MAKE it happen...
But there is a distinction that must be made (as I have ultimately found out), which distinction is about as hard to divide as 'liberty v. libertine', as an example - A difference that is ethereal and hard-to-pin-down in practice, but is the difference between what is good and healthy, and what is sinful and detrimental.
In a real sense, where exactly does liberty become libertine? where is that fulcrum, that tipping point? In very much the same sense, where does discipline, self-control, perseverance, and independence become 'A-Type control-freak'? That is a very hard question for me to answer, not to mention any sort of implementation.
But more toward your point, not only do I have that 'why' thing going on (in spades), I have also always been a tinker. I love to understand how things work, identify fault, and fix it. Nothing gives me as much satisfaction as finding some broken cast-off thing, taking it home to my shop, taking it apart piece by piece in order to understand it's function, and ultimately fixing it... restoring it to it's former function and beauty.
In doing so, one will inevitably become adept at identifying the work of others, who have come before: About half the time, a thing is busted, not by it's function, but by the work of some dingbat that got a-hold of the thing before me, making a fix out of 'bubble-gum and baling wire', as it were... I am often astounded at the hubris of such folks, taking apart a thing that they obviously do not understand, and gumming it up with their additions, making the thing worse than it was, not better.
But in that, one develops an hubris of one's own: "I am a hotshot because I can see the stupid works of these other people, not only seeing it, but fixing it too... therefore I am right, I am far-sighted, I am worthy of back-patting, even if I must pat my own back..."
There is a tongue-in-cheek saying which has been poster-ized, that I have hanging above my desk:
"Those of you who think you know everything are annoying to those of us who do."
It is there to remind me of my own hubris, which always meets, sooner or later, someone of better mastery and more knowledge, that will inevitably knock my own thinking for a loop. There is something to be found in that.
The whole focus is not on ONE verse which is only an example and not the main point, but that does seem to be SOP for Catholicism, to focus on the examples and completely miss the main point and clear teaching of the passage.
Neither of those verses supports your contention that it is the same body resurrected. It can still be different intrinsically, even if it looks the same and people can eat.
The body can be intrinsically different even if it LOOKS the same and has some of the same functions.
Any body that can pass through walls and doors and appear and disappear at will and can survive an ascension and live off this planet, is NOT the same body we have now.
Even if God did an atom by atom replacement and gave us perfectly formed and functioning bodies using the same materials we have now, they’d still be subject to corruption because the physical materials He’s using are part of the sin corrupted universe and still subject to eventual decay.
You sound a lot like mr. mm.
I hear what you’re saying.
I am definitely an individualist and independent myself. I was thinking, however, more in terms of controlling other people and situations and fretting and worrying about the stuff I couldn’t control.
The trick is to know when to let go.
Jesus says TOUCH ME, see I am real, I am not a SPIRIT, I have FLESH and BONE.
What was His flesh and bone made of? Flesh? and Bone? Human flesh? Human bone?
The body is the same body, though changed by God.
Just as His grace changes your soul, sanctifies it and makes it holy, but it is still your soul.
In what way do you agree with Jesus?
You say that His body only appears to be His body but is no longer His body, but He says Touch Me, see I have flesh and bone and He eats with them.
And why does He say it is I Myself? Because the body He had and the body which died and the body which rose, was Jesus’ body. And His body and His soul were eternally linked at the moment of His conception, just as ours are.
Dodge and attack, true to form.
I hardly focused on one verse, I have addressed ALL of those and even posted them in my own responses.
This is a tendency which frustrates me greatly when in debate with NCCOUOUDOB.
Did I say that Moses didn’t die? Have you found that post to link to?
No, of course, you didn’t.
No just move on and when the answer is one that can’t be glibly handled, then go on the attack.
There’s a reason for the old saying, “The best defense in a good offense.”
So, if we are going to talk SOP, then how about we talk about that of the aforementioned group? HMMMM?
****The body can be intrinsically different even if it LOOKS the same and has some of the same functions.****
LOL, I truly give up, at this point I don’t think even you can keep all the contortions and twisting about straight.
But, hey keep on keeping on, I don’t imagine there is anything that can throw off the canned response, even if they are incoherent.
I believe that God made us just the way He intended us to be - warts and all. While we live in these "earthen vessels", we ARE loved by our Creator and not one thing happens to us that He has not allowed for HIS purposes. But by that same token, we have these imperfections - diseases, disfigurements, handicaps, "difficulties" - because we live in a fallen world, one tainted by sin. For that reason I also believe that, in heaven, we will be complete and NOT subject to these faults that came about because of sin. Heaven will be perfect - no sin allowed at all - and no sign that sin ever effected any of us, other than the reminder of our Savior's sacrifice for us by His nail-scarred hands and feet.
Does God see us as we see ourselves or others as we see them? We do not see with the same love as He do we? I have said before, I believe that we will see each other as God sees us/them.
I think God sees us in reality - but HIS reality - and He sees all that we CAN be while we sojourn here. I agree, we don't have what it takes to really see each other as God sees us, yet Jesus said he had a new commandment to give his disciples. They were to "love one another as I have loved you". It had always been love your neighbor as yourself before, but we don't always love ourselves and if we cannot love ourselves, how can we love others? But this was something entirely NEW. To love each other as Christ loves us is the highest ideal of love. It is unconditional, sacrificial and all the best of what we can only imagine being loved like that is. Without the Holy Spirit within us, though, I do not think we CAN love like that, so, Jesus is setting the bar as high as it will go and then empowering us to reach it through Him.
In heaven, we WILL finally see each other as God sees us and we will all be changed, different, yet STILL able to be known to one another. We won't need name tags to know each other either, it is part of knowing as even we are known that we are promised. While we are still here on earth, though, I believe it is God's desire that we see others and love others as He does. If we all really did start thinking that way - the whole world would be changed for the better!
You continue to twist and mangle my words to create a support for your foundationless position.
I didn’t say his body isn’t his body, and I cannot imaging how you even come to that.
His new body does not consist of the kind of matter that exists in space-time. Its not made up of the illusory atomic ‘particles’ that are scheduled to cease to exist as Peter stated in his second epistle, and it is not subject to the limitations of time. We will be the same, but we are not given specifics enough to understand.
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I have twisted and mangled nothing.
His new body does not consist of the kind of matter that exists in space-time.
Really?
Dodge and attack.
Dodge and attack.
Dodge and attack.
Fail.
Jesus’ body has flesh.
Jesus’ body has bone.
Jesus’ body can consume food.
Jesus said it, I believe it and that settles it.
*****In heaven, we WILL finally see each other as God sees us and we will all be changed, different, yet STILL able to be known to one another. We won’t need name tags to know each other either, it is part of knowing as even we are known that we are promised. While we are still here on earth, though, I believe it is God’s desire that we see others and love others as He does. If we all really did start thinking that way - the whole world would be changed for the better! ******
Agreed.
Canned response? Do tell, from where did I get it?
Our body is not who we are. It is merely a convenient housing for our soul, which is what we really are. Changing the housing does not change the person.
Catholics have too much of a focus on this material, physical, earthly existence and not enough on the spiritual reality in which we operate every moment of our lives. It’s like they don’t even know it exists and they’re operating in it every moment of their lives.
This world is temporal and temporary.It will not last, it is destined for destruction, praise God, so that the new reality, called the new heavens and new earth, which are not tainted by or corrupted by sin can be established.
What is seen is transient, what is unseen is eternal. (2 Corinthians 4)
****Our body is not who we are. It is merely a convenient housing for our soul, which is what we really are. Changing the housing does not change the person.*****
And that is heresy which I think, though I am not sure, is known as Gnosticism.
What you are saying is that the body was created by God for corruption and destruction and that is just not true.
For one, it belies the dignity and goodness of God who does not create anything merely for the purpose to destroy it.
It denies the love for which we are created.
The body does not exist without the soul.
The soul does not exist but for the body.
God so loved the human body that He created one for Himself, in order to offer that body in sacrifice as atonement for our sins, redemption for our bodies and souls and to reopen through obedience what had been closed through disobedience.
The belief that the body is refuse, mere garbage to be discarded/replaced is not Scriptural and denies the bodily resurrection Scripture promises. It is not a Christian belief.
If a soul were to acquire a new body the Scriptural term would be reincarnation not resurrection.
Peace be with you.
You once warned me that many of those we debate here are the fringe and not mainstream Protestant. I think this debate over bodily resurrection couldn’t affirm that fact any more clearly.
Reincarnation. You hit the nail on the head.
I find it so problematic when some who claim to argue authoritatively about the meaning of first century Koine Greek idioms display such a limited understanding of modern English. They are far too often more concerned with who is right instead of what is right.
It does seem that the injection of a little common sense into this discussion had a very chilling effect.
Peace be with you.
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