Posted on 01/09/2012 9:10:42 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
Show us any Catholic teaching that approves of any of this,dear friend?
You're pointing fingers that can be pointed at Jews during certain time periods that don't reflect Judaism either
Your arguments are with sinful people and not with the teachings of Catholicism
I don’t read “Typho” that way. The Jews in Justin’s time were different from those of Jesus’ time. They were also different from the Jews in the time of Constantine, after man years of rabbinical influence , The Talmud of the east gradually extended west to the Roman Empire from its base in Iraq. But they had become anti-Christian, not only rejecting Jesus but other expectations of a messianic kingdom. What Justin was rejecting was a Judaism, which no longer reached out to the nations as before, but withdrew into itself. This could not last, as the centuries would show. But anti-semiticism is the wrong word to use against Justin. Anti-judaism is better, if only because anti-semitism is an anachronism, a product of the 19th century and its anthropological notions of racism.
Don’t know why you write “Christian”. It was Christians who did the dirty deeds. But the pogroms were not countless, else there would have been no Jews to beat up on. Jews have got the idea that things were better for them in Muslim counties, but only because there was a regular system of tribute. Jews and Christians hated one another in Europe because Jews were outside the feudal order. Where baptism was the entry into citizenship, there Jews were never more than resident aliens. I dare say that the hatred between Jews and Christians was far more intense because they fought over a common treasure, the Sacred Scriptures. The Moslems cared not a fig for those same Scriptures. For them there was nothing to debate. Here is the Koran, take it or leave it.
“And there’s the matter of Jesus in the New Testament celebrating ‘Feast of Dedication’ - Chanukah, an exclusively rabbinic holiday.”
That is because Jesus was JEWISH. He was born a Jew, became a Rabbi and died a Jew....he was not a Christian. He did not change his religion. He was a renegade in many respects, but if you read his teachings, they were the teachings of Rabbi Hillel, who lived before him.
.....but go try to tell that to others......
If you actually KNEW what you are talking about, you would realize that I am an Orthodox Jew, and, as I am Torah Observant- that makes me VERY much a Conservative........
And, you are bandying about the typical, anti-semitic’s “victimology” line. Get an education, already.
“The traditional Christian teaching is that the CHURCH is Israel, not the modern secular state in the middle east with that name. And modern Talmudic Judaism is NOT the Judaism of the time of Christ. Yes, in 1BC, Judaism was the only true Faith on Earth. But after 33AD, it is no longer the True Faith. And modern Judaism is not in any way the Judaism of 33AD.”
1.) “Yisrael” is the name HaShem gave to Yaakov ( Jacob) and his descendants-the JEWS. The children of Yisrael are the JEWISH people-AM Yisrael. The name means to wrestle with HaShem- not against, but WITH. You are not Jews, you are not descendants from the Jews, therefore, you are not Yisrael. You are just another revisionist.......
2.) “Modern Talmudic Judaism” IS EXACTLY the same as the Judaism at the time of Jesus. Why don’t you educate yourself as to what the Talmud is -a collection of Rabbinic commentaries and discussions based upon the Mishnah.
3.) Judaism is no longer the true faith? HaShem commanded the Jewish people to follow the Torah “FOREVER” and to NEVER change it, or be swayed from it. HaShem stated and promised that His Covenant was “LASTING and FOREVER”.
Are you saying that HaShem, the ONE who put into works all creation in HIS plan since the beginning of time, changed his mind? That HE broke HIS word and promise?
You would be incorrect, as the proof of HIS word and HIS promise to the Jewish people is taking place right before everyone’s eyes- EXACTLY as written and like clockwork.
You can try to revise, but you can never change the truth, and proof of HaShem’s word. That is why HE provided the proof for all eyes. HIS name is “I AM”- meaning ONE, not “We Are....” Thy Shalt not have any gods before ME”....not “Us”........
As for Joseph Sobran- You will recall that Sobran was fired from the National Review because Buckely found his work to be “contextually Anti-Semitic”. That you would quote such a hate monger to defend your point of view, reflects what evil is in your own heart. But, that will be between you and HaShem at the time you are to answer for it.
But please allow me, an Orthodox Jewish rabbinical student to give you a little tip: HaShem is angered by anti-semites, and denial ain’t gonna cut it.
“I will make of you a great nation,
And I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you
And curse him that curses you;
And all the families of the earth
Shall bless themselves by you.”
Robby,
The Jewish people are no different from Avraham to Moshe Rabbienu ( Moses) to now. Our beliefs have never changed. Judaism has not changed. The Torah has not changed. In fact, it is written the same way, in the same manner, with the same tools, created in the same way, as it was when Moshe Rabbienu instructed us how to do it:
http://www.tifereth-israel.org/sefer-torah-start-finish-new-torah-created-part-1
http://www.czechmemorialscrollstrust.org/creating_a_torah_scroll.htm
The Talmud, both Jerusalm and Babylonian Talmuds are various Rabbinic discussions and commentaries based upon the Torah Mishnah- the Oral Torah and law.
But it is NOT a change of the Torah, or of the Torah Mishnah. I can tell you this faithfully, as I study it day in and day out as all Orthodox Jews do.
Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses) was the first to teach the Torah Mishnah, as he received it from HaShem on Mt. Sinai , after which, he then transcribed a Torah for each of the 12 tribes. The Torah has never changed. Neither has the Oral Torah and Halacha.
Jews do not accept Jesus as Moshiach. There are numerous reasons for this. But primarily because the many prophecies of the Holy Neviim had not taken place.
They are, however, taking place now. Jews do believe in a Messianic kingdom. It is part of Judaism, that’s where you folks got it from. But Jews do NOT believe that the Moshiach is a deity. He is a Rabbi, and a very holy one who is descended from the line of Dovid HaMelech. He will lead the world into the Redemption.
Jews did not fight over the sacred scriptures. They were given to us. So what was there to fight about? We were persecuted and killed because we would not convert to Christianity or Islam, and simply because of hatred.
Here is a historical listing of the pograms and persecution against the Jewish people. Yes, we survived. HaShem promised us that we always would.
Here are a few links that list these events :
http://www.zionism-israel.com/his/Anti-semitism_timeline.htm
http://www.mosaiclaw.org/rs_fact_timeline.asp
The historical cincumstances of the Jews certainly changed. It is guessed that at one time, the Jews constituted one-tenth of the population of the empire. Under Trajan there was a great uprising that forced the emperor to abandon his pacification of Iraq and turn west to put down a rising of the Disapora that taxed his power to the limitbefore it was quashed. The rising of Bar korqba, and its suppression by Hadrian, and the obliteration of the Jewish character of Jerusalem, marked the end of a political phase that began with the Maccabees. There after, the Jews became reconciled to Roman mastery and were recognized offically by the Romans. A status. not allowed the Christians until the 3rd Century. With the disappearnce of the Jewish state, Jews took a different look at their religious tradition, one that was suited to their dispersed situation. Naturally as a Christian I accept the Torah but not the tradition known as Judaism, except in part.
Oh, I know exactly what you are. Whining, crying, playing the victim. Whaaaa, whaaaa, he doesn't agree with me he must be a anti-semite. ~snivel~ all my failures in life are because of prejudice. Please feel sorry for me since I'm such a victim. Yeah, I know just what you are. I had that education long ago. If it walks, talks and quacks like a lib - it's a lib.
As for looking these up, you do the work.
Which is it?
Of the others, knowing the time in which they wrote, and the context, frankly, with a couple exceptions due to hyperbole, they simply represent the truth from a Christian perspective, if in an offensive manner. Don't forget that in their day, the memory of Saul arresting and turning over Christians to the Temple for prosecution and worse was still very fresh and vivid, and much of this hyperbole was due to the persecution at the hands of the Jews.
1) I simply quoted an accurate statement from Sobran,
“An anti-Semite used to mean a man who hated Jews. Now it means a man who is hated by Jews.”
Frankly, I know nothing about Sobran, and don't care about his background. That quote stands alone, and
2) claiming that posting a simple quote "reflects what evil is in your own heart" is a blatant violation of the Religion Forum rules against making it personal, and should probably be deleted from this thread.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
I understand, but what of this one????? Is this not personal, as well?????
To: Never A Dull Moment
“Oh, I know exactly what you are. Whining, crying, playing the victim. Whaaaa, whaaaa, he doesn’t agree with me he must be a anti-semite. ~snivel~ all my failures in life are because of prejudice. Please feel sorry for me since I’m such a victim. Yeah, I know just what you are. I had that education long ago. If it walks, talks and quacks like a lib - it’s a lib.”
51 posted on January 11, 2012 5:24:25 AM EST by circlecity
“The historical cincumstances of the Jews certainly changed. “
I would like to think so, but unfortunately it is getting very bad again. Jews are beginning to leave Europe as levels of anti-semitism and violence against Jews are reaching levels as high as during the Holocaust. Attacks on Jews have increased dramatically- even in the USA. The MSM covers it up and does not even mention it. Most of us in the US are armed.
Here are some recent examples:
http://news.yahoo.com/ca-judge-deems-ramming-jewish-woman-shopping-cart-003506015.html
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/146545#.Tw23dEaTr-V
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137239#.TlTDd0aIaB8
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/04/are_jewish_students_safe_on_ca.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html
http://commentarama.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-diaspora-jews-leaving-europe.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2683783.stm
http://leslielebl.blogspot.com/2011/01/jews-leaving-europe.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/07/AR2009020701972.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/07/AR2009020701972.html
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/9243/after_anti_semitic_attacks_on_subway_jews_in_berlin_alarmed
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2009/08/30/1007535/ant-semitic-incidents-rise-sharply-in-buenos-aires
http://www.jafi.org/JewishAgency/English/About/Updates/Personal+Stories/Archive/2010/jan26.htm
http://antisemitism.org.il/article/63357/jewish-hatred-rise-europe
http://south-asiaforum.org/2009/02/18/world-depressions-lead-to-a-rise-in-anti-semitism-all-over-europe-the-evidence-is-around-us/
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/01/10/the-slow-motion-exodus-of-european-jews/
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/19/spew-anti-semitism-at-occupy-rally-get-fired/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/one-day-we-shall-kill-all-the-jews-muslim-brotherhood-holds-hateful-rally-at-cairo-mosque/
http://yourjewishnews.com/13920.aspx
In the USA, it is getting pretty bad. We believe that it is happening to bring Jews back to Israel, which would be in keeping with the prophecies - the gathering of the tribes from where ever we have been exiled brought about by anti-semitism. In Judaic scripture, this is one of the signs that tell us that the Moshiach now is among us and the time is very near. Iran is another. There are hundreds of them, and they are all taking place, much like clockwork.
The Jewish nation of Israel never disapeared. There were always plenty of us there, but we were continuously invaded. Most people only know about the more recent history of the Holocaust.
The Romans took a good number of us out as slaves, but 2 of the largest tribes remained - Judah and Benjamin, along with remnants of the other tribes who escaped or remained. The Crusaders alone, killed well over a million of us.
However, Judaism, never changed - not even in exile. What you are referring to are the customs of dress and foods that were influenced by the nations where we lived. But not the belief. That is the glue that held us together as a people for those of us who spent over 2,000 years in exile. Jews have always and will always adhere to the Torah. We will die before we change that, and have. That is what HaShem commanded of us and we obey that command.
What people do not understand is that we are a nation, a people, and one huge extended family that descended from known common ancestors who had remarkable experiences with G-D. 3 million Jews in the desert with moses saw HIM, heard HIM and experienced miracle after miracle.
And even today, HaShem still does miracles for our survival- just look at the War of Independence in ‘48, the 6 day war and the Yom Kippor wars...
Syrian tank commanders refused to go attack when they saw a row of giant angels with flaming swords, and a white hand descend from the clouds saying “stop”. That is how the IDF with only 3 tanks took out the hundreds of Syrian tanks. To this day, West Point teaches our future US officers that there is no logical explanation as to why and how Israel won her wars. A cousin of mine who is a West Point cadet just sat in the class and smiled. He knew why.
Even during Operation Cast Lead, there are stories by scores of soldiers and officers who claim they were saved by the biblical matriarch Rachel, who kept appearing to them warning them what houses were booby-trapped. You can even see their testimonies on You Tube. She even spoke to them...appearing and disappearing into thin air.And, as if by magic, maps of the Arab strongholds showed up on the ground, allowing the IDF to find where they were and take them out.
It is when Israel is influenced or “guided” by others, is when we fail. Our numbers were meant to remain small, and we are to remain separate from others. Soon, the world will understand why.
The main guideline here: Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
But if we go even farther back in history we see that invasion is how the Jews took the land too. The genocide of the Cannanites. Ever since the Cannanites nobody has had any claim to the land other than by force of arms. The land belongs to whoever is strong enough to take and keep it. That bar was set 3000 years ago.
The Jewish people are Hebrews which ARE part of the 3 tribes of a single family who make up the Canaanic people and language group. These are the people who are indigenous to that area-We are the same people. The arabs, by the way, are NOT among them.
When Moses brought the Hebrews into Canaan it was a re-entry of people who were originally from that area. He wondered around in the desert for 40 years waiting for those with the slave mentality to die out, and to raise a generation of tough Hebrew warriors.
It must be remembered that when Joseph became the vizer under Pharoah, and re-established ties with his brothers, only 75 Jews (his extended family) entered Egypt. The others remained in the area. After 400 years, 3 million left with Moses. That by the way, was only 1/5 of the Jewish people. The rest died in Egypt.
HaShem instructed Moses to kill off the main group of Canaanites, their animals, crops- everything, and to Kosher ( ritually purify ) the land. The reason for this was that this group, in HaShems eyes practiced, every abomination and manner of filth. They too, butchered people.
And, it must be noted, and this is the difference, is that this was, and still is, the only time in over 5,000 years of recorded Jewish History that the Jews were ever permitted to do this.
Force of arms is one way to procure and hold land. HaShem’s will is another. But what happened next became the template for all real estate documents that now exist: The Torah.
3,325 years ago, in the Torah, by HaShem’s instructions, Moses very clearly documents the measures of land apportioned to each of the 12 tribes. It also documents purchases of land by others. Examples include the land where Rachel’s tomb sits, Joseph’s tomb, the Cave of the Patriarchs, who purchased them from whom, and for how much.
If someone invades your home and throws you out, you have legal redress to regain and keep your home. You must prove that it is indeed your home- a title and deed, a written, historically recorded document, proves your ownership. The archeology of a people, facts in the ground, further back up that claim.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.