Gay Episcopal Bishop to Preach at San Francisco Catholic Parish

Catholic Culture ^ | 11/22/11

[marshmallow]

A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.

Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.

[rzman21]

That doesn't make the Holy Spirit wrong...That means the person following didn't listen and read very well... >>Are you talking about yourself?

Titus 3:9-11 9 ܡܢ ܒܥܬܐ ܕܝܢ ܤܟܠܬܐ ܘܡܢ ܬܫܥܝܬܐ ܕܫܪܒܬܐ ܘܡܢ ܚܪܝܢܐ ܘܡܢ ܬܟܬܘܫܐ ܕܤܦܪܐ ܐܫܬܐܠ ܝܘܬܪܢ ܓܝܪ ܠܝܬ ܒܗܝܢ ܘܤܪܝܩܢ ܐܢܝܢ ܀ 10 ܡܢ ܓܒܪܐ ܗܪܤܝܘܛܐ ܡܢ ܒܬܪ ܚܕܐ ܙܒܢ ܘܬܪܬܝܢ ܕܡܪܬܐ ܐܢܬ ܠܗ ܐܫܬܐܠ ܀ 11 ܘܗܘܝܬ ܝܕܥ ܕܡܢ ܕܗܟܢܐ ܗܘ ܡܥܩܡ ܗܘ ܘܚܛܐ ܘܗܘ ܚܝܒ ܢܦܫܗ ܀

[Quix]

WHICH PART

of the Scripture about

New International Version (©1984)
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

.

even SOUNDS LIKE

infallibility for individuals?

What do you think the pattern/model for New Testament Church Life laid down in I Cor 12-14 is for?

A diversity of individuals in a local congregation are to prayerfully seek Holy Spirit's discernment on matters, prophetic words given etc. Old codgers are to be sought for their discernment and wisdom etc.

Will they get it wrong on this or that detail; this or that occasion?

OF COURSE.

That keeps individuals on their faces before God--seeking HIS will and truth 1:1 with God.

That keeps humility for individuals AND GROUPS, as a desperate need--in order to be right with God.

However, in my 65 years, they have tended to get it

a LOT LESS WRONG than the Vatican power-mongers' Magicsterical---by a HUGE margin.

The Vatican Ashteroth-Mary-Goddess-Queen-of-Heaven cult method EXALTS PRIDE; EXALTS MAN; EXALTS LISTS OF THINGS AND PERSONAGES

OTHER THAN

GOD ALMIGHTY; THE LORD JESUS CHRIST; HIS SPIRIT!

IF y'all think that the Vatican's chronic and extreme overweening emphasis on PRIDE (directly and indirectly) is pleasing to God and going to facilitate being ushered into Heaven--I think millions will be shocked to discover otherwise.

[D-fendr]

The order being that God elected you because he saw your choice or you chose because He elected you..

Salvation by faith vs. salvation by election.

Grace>Faith>Salvation
vs. Election>Grace>Salvation.

"Do humans have free will to believe or reject the gospel?" One says yes, the other says no.

we both hold Salvation by grace alone by faith alone.. With the tiny asterisk (*only if you were born lucky) by one group and not by the other.

Hardly the same soteriology, not even the same interpretation of salvation, Christ's atonement or man's free will.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

Acts 10:43 says “everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His Name”

WHY?

because anyone who believes in Him will be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 22:16 “ and now why do you wait? rise and BE BAPTIZED, AND WASH AWAY YOUR SINS, CALLING ON HIS NAME”

This is what Paul was taught about baptism. Romans 10:9-10 is true again because anyone believing in Christ will want to receive the forgiveness of sins, be placed into Christ and receive the Holy Spirit, all happen in baptism.

Acts 10 DOES NOT TEACH REGENERATION PRECEDES BAPTISM.

Read Acts 11:15 “as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them.......” it does not say they voiced faith in Jesus, confessed him with their lips and believed in their hearts. read their verse again, it says the Holy Spirit fell on them “as I BEGAN to speak” clearly the falling of the Holy Spirit resulted in them “speaking in tongues and extolling God” it was a sign to Peter that the Gospel was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. they had not been regenerated, that is why Peter commanded them to be baptized. it does not say they were baptized as a first act of obedience, nor to display outwardly what has happened inwardly. this language is not contained in the Bible.

let’s look at what the Bible says about baptism:

mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized will be saved
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 we are baptized into One Body
colossians 2:12 we are buried with him in baptism
romans 6:3 those of us baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death
galatians 3:27 those who have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ
titus 3:5 we are saved by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit
1 Peter 3:21 baptism saves us
ephesians 5:26 the church has been cleansed by the washing of water with the word
1 Corinthians 6:11 we have been washed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
ephesians 4:5 there is ONE BAPTISM
Acts 2:38 and 22:16 baptism is for the remission of sins

notice none of these passages indicates baptism is SYMBOLIC IN ANY WAY.

now let’s look at what the Bible doesn’t say about baptism:

that it is an act of obedience - ......................( no verses can be cited )
that it is outward display of the salvation which has occurred already...................( no verses can be cited )
that baptism does not save us .........................( no verses can be cited )
that baptism is a work............................ ( no verses can be cited )
that there is such a thing as “water baptism”............... ( no verses can be cited )
that there is such a thing as “spirit baptism”........... ( no verses can be cited )

finally, the clearest evidence from the Bible for baptismal regeneration is in Acts 8:30-39
the eunuch had Philip preach Jesus to him and the enuch said there is water, what prevented him from being baptized. obviously Philip had told him he needed to be baptized for the forgiveness of his sins. Philip answered that if he believed with all his heart, he may. this verse tells us up until this point, the eunuch had not said a “sinners prayer” or accepted Jesus as his Savior. after the eunuch said he believed Jesus Christ is the Son of God, he was baptized. the only people recorded are the eunuch and Philip. no mention of obedience, no mention of an outward display. once the regeneration was over, Philip was caught up by the Holy Spirit.

one more comment, you say this is not a 16th century tradition of men.
ok, let’s test that statement. can you name one Christian from 95ad up until the 16th century that believed baptism was not for the remission of sins, but rather was an act of obedience?

[Quix]

Like you know anything about Catholics,

.

.

I find such snide comments particularly demeaning, unfittingly harsh, arrogant, sanctimonious, haughty, prissy, self-righteous, petty, insulting and hypocritical--and all the more so when originating with RC's who wail and whine fairly relentlessly whenever any Proddy dares to get remotely close to insulting the thin-skinned all encompassing hair-trigger sensibilities of an RC.

What HUBRIS TO THE MAX.

THAT would be like some of us accusing retired nurses of NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT NURSING.

IIRC, RNMomOf7 was a dyed-in-the wool Roman Catholic for a lot of years. She gave it her earnest best for at least a good portion of those years.

I realize that her current perspective on Roman Catholicism is dismaying to those still given to kissing statue toes.

However, blackwashing her perspective away by claiming she knows nothing about Roman Catholicism is utter ARROGANT HOGWASH. From where I sit, she knows more than most of the RC whiners hereon. Ditto MetMom.

Most of the RC wailers, whiners and ranters hereon can't stomach the idea that a former RC knows as much or more about Roman Catholicism than they do. Their synapses fry trying to consider that REALITY--IF they even brave a microsecond's thought in that direction. THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM!

Thankfully, the lurkers and fair-minded people far and wide see such accusations as transparent rationalization and hubris to the max.

The old wail "you weren't properly cathechized" is similarly utter nonsense--at some point--a BRAZEN LIE.

A number of former RC's TAUGHT CATECHISM under above average supervisors who were also well taught. The accusation just doesn't hold water--not a drop.

Nevertheless, because it CAN'T COMPUTE between the ears of small-minded, narrow-minded, rigid, prissy Vatican brainwashed robots--it MUST NOT BE TRUE! LOL.

What a farce.

[Quix]

Excellent post, imho.

I believe that some sort of spiritual enlivenment occurs in an earnest good-faith baptism.

I believe it is quite possible to be saved without baptism:

Those who call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved etc.

The thief on the Cross etc.

Those in accidents on the way to baptism.

I know a Pentecostal who declared that God would not allow such accidents on the way to baptism. Yet, I knew of real cases where exactly that happened.

I believe it is wise to be baptized as soon as workable. It is the loving, obedient thing to do.

There is some sort of spiritual reality that occurs with being symbolically buried with Christ in baptism and rising with Him in His Resurrection quality Salvation UP OUT OF the water.

. . . OBVIOUSLY, I’m for immersion. LOL.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

let’s use LOGIC.

how can “forgiveness of sins be a past event and receiving the Holy Spirit be a future event?

IT CAN’T.

you receive the Holy Spirit when you receive the forgiveness of your sins, you can’t have one, without the other.

this is why EVERY BIBLE translates ACTS 2:38 to say “for”, not “because of”.

[MarkBsnr]

Catholics do not get the difference between being 'protestant " and being saved ...

To the contrary. We understand it very well. That is why we are Catholic.

[MarkBsnr]

IF y'all think that the Vatican's chronic and extreme overweening emphasis on PRIDE (directly and indirectly) is pleasing to God and going to facilitate being ushered into Heaven--I think millions will be shocked to discover otherwise.

Protestant millions, sure. We don't believe in the pride of the Reformation. We don't believe in the pride of self-declared salvation. We don't believe that Jesus the Christ - the Ultimate Judge - owes us anything.

We Catholics bow our heads (literally) and we plead for mercy from Him. We do not declare that we are the Church and we get to declare our own salvation. Now, that is pride. I'd like to see that when they offer that up to the King of Kings.

[MarkBsnr]

Hardly the same soteriology, not even the same interpretation of salvation, Christ's atonement or man's free will.

I think that Protestant theology comes down to simply the church of Joe and Mike; and Joe gets the church and Mike gets the house when they divorce.

[MarkBsnr]

The old wail "you weren't properly cathechized" is similarly utter nonsense--at some point--a BRAZEN LIE. A number of former RC's TAUGHT CATECHISM under above average supervisors who were also well taught. The accusation just doesn't hold water--not a drop. Nevertheless, because it CAN'T COMPUTE between the ears of small-minded, narrow-minded, rigid, prissy Vatican brainwashed robots--it MUST NOT BE TRUE! LOL. What a farce. The old wail "you weren't properly cathechized" is similarly utter nonsense--at some point--a BRAZEN LIE. A number of former RC's TAUGHT CATECHISM under above average supervisors who were also well taught. The accusation just doesn't hold water--not a drop. Nevertheless, because it CAN'T COMPUTE between the ears of small-minded, narrow-minded, rigid, prissy Vatican brainwashed robots--it MUST NOT BE TRUE! LOL. What a farce.

Absolutely a farce. These allegedly former Catholics do not display any more knowledge of the Church than a Tagalog native that had never met Westerners ever before. I don't believe them any more than I believe you. The evidence is the continuous posting of comic book versions of Catholicism versus actual Catholicism.

The reality is that they post as if they do not have a clue. It's like somebody from Peoria who has lived there all their lives suddenly claims to be a secret agent in the Middle East and Russia and spins stories that do not jive with the reality.

We have a rather interesting view of your claims as well.

[MarkBsnr]

Those who call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved etc.

That's not what Jesus says.

. . . OBVIOUSLY, I’m for immersion. LOL.

So am I - for the right people and for the right length of time...

[MarkBsnr]

you receive the Holy Spirit when you receive the forgiveness of your sins, you can’t have one, without the other.

this is why EVERY BIBLE translates ACTS 2:38 to say “for”, not “because of”.

You are going to confuse them. I must ask you to knock it off in the name of fluffy kindness.

[D-fendr]

LOL!

I’m almost ashamed I guffawed at that one..

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

excellent post Mark.

anyone who spent one hour learning the Catholic Faith can see the phony “catholics” from real Catholics a mile away.

here’s another anology - it’s like someone from Uganda lands in the USA and sees currency and decides he can counterfeit it. he goes into his basement and starts cranking out SEVEN dollar bills and then heads out to Walmart and tries to spend them.
counterfeit “catholics” stick out like seven dollar bills to actual Catholics.
the Catholic Faith is folly to these folks.

[Kitty Mittens]

(((((Sending Heartfelt Prayers)))))

[D-fendr]

it confuses Christ’s work on the cross with our co-operation with God’s grace.

Some have 'interpreted' their way back to being meaningless animals wholly at the mercy of the fickle gods of fate.

[MarkBsnr]

LOL! I’m almost ashamed I guffawed at that one..

Many thanks. However, it's our separated friends who write the material, for which I am grateful.

[MarkBsnr]

anyone who spent one hour learning the Catholic Faith can see the phony “catholics” from real Catholics a mile away.

Yup, anyone can claim that they have taught CCD. They can claim that they know the catechism. However, we catch them time after time after time posting absolute nonsense. It is as if a sociology student tries to pretend that he is a nuclear physicist. In a research enviroment.

How long will that last, do you suppose?

[MarkBsnr]

Some have 'interpreted' their way back to being meaningless animals wholly at the mercy of the fickle gods of fate.

I think that most of them have determined that the god in the mirror is where they ought to be paying attention. Just imagine this: a room full of liberals. Is there any difference to a room full of mirrors, or a room full of antiCatholics? All mirroring the other, with no substance, and no meaning.