Posted on 08/11/2009 12:05:41 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
Prophecy is a fascinating, compelling, and ever-so interesting field of study. It is history written in advance. When you get into it, and I mean really into it, you can see God’s will for the world and see his plan unfold in it. Understanding Bible Prophecy serves these functions.
1. It proves the validity of the promises of God. 2. It reminds us that God is in control. 3. It serves as an instrument for measuring the moral and immoral state of humanity. 4. It serves as a tool to prepare us for the Lord’s return, so that we will be ready both spiritually and morally when we meet him face to face. 5. We will reach a point when we all know that all we did after receiving Christ as our savior, telling others, and bringing up the hope that was in us was worth it.
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But Israel has been in unbelief for 2000 years. They have forsaken the covenant of God. They have rejected the faith of Abraham. They have been cast off from corporate blessing.
This has nothing to do with the plot of ground in the Middle East that politicians have labeled "Israel". It has everything to do with faith and repentance, both of which are necessary for the true Israel to experience the blessing and restoration of God. Futurists don’t get it, since they seem to be more excited about a date (1948) than about the true condition of the people.
Modern Israel is not biblical Israel. Most futurists don't get it.
That is the contention of the futurists, but there is no evidence such is the case. Modern Israel is not biblical Israel. Even a superficial examination of the facts will demonstrate that. There has been no objective faith and repentance on the part of the people that would cause God to restore Israel as a nation at this time. Futurists are blinded to the conditions of biblical restoration. They want it to be true so they ignore the facts and just believe it to be true.
Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. (Matt. 21:43)Sadly, that condition still exists. Israel will not be restored until they corporately cry out, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Matt. 23:39) and acknowedge the Messiah of Israel, Jesus Christ.
Christ's first instruction to His disciples was to go BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The historical record is that after King Solomon there was a 'civil' war and Israel became two houses. House of Israel and House of Judah. The House of Israel also called Ephraim were sent into captivity unto the Assyrian king as punishment. AND it was also said THEY, the children would not remember who they were. But they still would fulfill that promise to Abraham his seed would be as the stars of heaven and the sand of the sea. And as Moses penned each of the tribes were named not as a bunch but as individual tribes and what their 'future' would hold. Now how hard is it to understand that the promise was fulfilled to Abraham but a bunch of people that do NOT know who they are, are fulfilling the promise??????????? AND Rebeka was told when she was pregnant with twins Esau and Jacob what their 'collective' future would hold.
This has nothing to do with the plot of ground in the Middle East that politicians have labeled "Israel". It has everything to do with faith and repentance, both of which are necessary for the true Israel to experience the blessing and restoration of God. Futurists don’t get it, since they seem to be more excited about a date (1948) than about the true condition of the people. Modern Israel is not biblical Israel. Most futurists don't get it
That plot of ground is described as the Heavenly Father's most favorite place. And He had His prophets pen much about what would be taking place on that plot of ground up and until that 'day' when the Savior returns with a double edge sword for a harvest. And the fake Jesus shows up first.
There are a few things found in those three accounts modern Christians tend to ignore or read over or just plain do not understand where it is they can find where Christ foretold US all things. And that would begin with ‘In the beginning’ book called Genesis.
And how does this relate to the discussion at hand? The gospel is going out to all nations, including those of Israel after the flesh. "… and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1:8)
That plot of ground is described as the Heavenly Father's most favorite place. And He had His prophets pen much about what would be taking place on that plot of ground up and until that 'day' when the Savior returns with a double edge sword for a harvest. And the fake Jesus shows up first.
Well, not exactly. The NT makes it clear that Abraham and his spiritual offspring are looking “a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them” (Heb. 11:16; cf. Gal. 3:28,29).
God true people already inhabit this heavenly city (Heb. 12:22). As I mentioned before, the error of futurism is due in no small part to the way they ignore or twist the NT commentary on the OT promises that God has made to His people. These are spiritual promises with a spiritual reality. The error of the rabbis and teacher in Jesus’ day was to be looking for a physical/fleshly fulfillment of promises. Many futurists today suffer from the same affliction.
Did He? Is that all He promised?
Again, if you ignore the NT you will come to faulty conclusions such as this.
Jesus made it clear that the “the meek shall inherit the earth” (Matt. 5:5). Jesus was speaking this to His fellow Jewish people. The inheritance of eternal life involved more than just a plot of ground in the Middle East.
And we are told by the apostle Paul regarding Abraham, “For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” (Rom. 4:13). The promise to Abraham involved more than just a plot of ground in the Middle East. It involved the whole world. The true sons of Abraham are heirs of that promise. They are the meek ones.
By focusing on some human-conceived political state, the futurists miss the boat when it comes to Israel because they fail to discern who is the true Israel of God and what God has promised them.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2)
Here are some characteristics of Biblical Israel that modern Israel does not share. The absence of these characteristics proves that modern Israel is in no sense related to Biblical Israel, therefore it cannot be a fulfillment of any biblical prophecies.
First of all, if the modern, secular state of Israel is not a fulfillment of prophecy, then why and how is it alive today? The Jews faced fierce opposition when the established their state. There were too many powerful, Arab nations that didn’t want it to exist, and were willing to exterminate it once and for all. It didn’t happen. Add to that, when you hear the testimonies of Israelis who were in the 6 day war (the war which placed Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews) in 1967, there is no possible way any other nation would have been able to survive that had God not intervened. God allowed the modern state of Israel to serve as an indicator that started the timetable for the end times. In prophecy, you also study the alignments of things (like moral, spiritual, culture) and how simultaneously those things occur.
I don’t know if I agree with the claim that Israel denies the covenant of God made with Abraham. Most Israelis believe in God the Father, but they reject Jesus Christ as their redeemer.
Benjamin Netanyahu recently stated these lines in an address he made back in June.
“The connection of the Jewish People to the Land has been in existence for more than 3,500 years. Judea and Samaria, the places where our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob walked, our forefathers David, Solomon, Isaiah and Jeremiah – this is not a foreign land, this is the Land of our Forefathers. ...
“The right to establish our sovereign state here, in the Land of Israel, arises from one simple fact: Eretz Israel is the birthplace of the Jewish People.
“As the first PM David Ben Gurion in the declaration of the State, the State of Israel was established here in Eretz Israel, where the People of Israel created the Book of Books, and gave it to the world.”
Benjamin Netanyahu does believe in God. I have seen him interviewed for years on Christian TV programs like Benny Hinn and John Hagee Today. In fact many of his political ambitions appear that they could very well be launching pads for the fulfillment of some of the more harsher prophecies relating to Israel.
Case in Point:
Netanyahu acknowledges the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
He wants to rebuild the temple.
He is seeking to attack Iran, which is a part of the Shanghai Pact with Russia and China, meaning that if Iran was attacked, then it would be regarded as an attack on Russia and China, both of which are implied in the Bible.
Now, as to Israel’s spiritual state:
We Christians see Christ as God because he is God. Jews don’t because, as I said in another post, they are still stuck within an Old Testament frame of mind. God brings physical restoration, then faith. You seem to have it the other way around. The physical restoration was a miracle. It was supernatural and out of the ordinary. It’s existence today is the same.
Now, the faith part comes during and after the Tribulation period. It is a period in which after the church is gone (Israel’s best friends) at the rapture, the modern secular state of Israel will sign a peace treaty with the Antichrist. If they are to come to faith first, then why would they be here to sign, much less trust the Antichrist?
Daniel, Revelation, Zechariah, and others go into this deeper. The Temple has to be rebuilt either during or just before the reign of the Antichrist. Your argument treats these events as though they either do not exist, or are unimportant. Then, mid-way through the tribulation, the Antichrist will sit in the Temple, causing the Abomination of Desolation. Then all of these invasions and Judgments come on the world. Meanwhile, as Jews realize that they were jipped, 144,000 JEWS come to Christ and tell the world that Jesus Christ, the true Messiah is the Son of God and is coming soon.
The nation of Israel is exactly where it is supposed to be. Once Christians are raptured up, Old Testament style events will occur. Remember, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way, which in many ways resembles how it was in Old Testament days. The Jews will not have their buddies (the Christians) to support them. They will be all alone. Their lack of faith will prompt them to trust the antichrist. The antichrist will violate their trust. God will reign Judgments on the earth, and Israel won’t know what to do. A second Holocaust will emerge. It is by Christ’s intervention will they be able to see the true Messiah and the Prince of Peace. It is at that point, regarding Israel, Zechariah’s prophecy will be fulfilled.
Zechariah 12:10
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [a] of grace and supplication. They will look on [b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Just curious: On what evidence do you make such a bizarre assertion?
As I pointed out, by pure political will. Israel would not exist except for the beneficence of other countries, esp, the (largely Christian) United States. It was born of political will, and thus it is maintained in the same fashion.
Contrast that with the undeniably miraculous way in which Biblical Israel during times of blessing was kept from her enemies (e.g., David vs. the Philistines).
Futurists just don't get it. While making a big deal of biblical prophecy, they fail to see the real power behind all prophetic fulfillment, God Almighty. Modern Israel just does not fit the bill.
Now, as to Israel’s spiritual state:
It is much the same as it was in AD70 when God removed the temple and withdrew His blessings from the people, establishing the new covenant nation (1 Peter 2:9). The remnant of Israel is being saved today as back then, mostly in the Diaspora.
144,000 JEWS come to Christ and tell the world that Jesus Christ, the true Messiah is the Son of God and is coming soon.
Another invention of futurism. The Bible says nothing about 144,000 Jewish evangelists doing is a few years what faithful Christian have been doing for 2000 years. That is not "literally" found in Scripture.
The nation of Israel is exactly where it is supposed to be. Once Christians are raptured up, Old Testament style events will occur.
Another fiction of futurism. God has His people, the Church, made up of Jews and gentiles, the sons of Abraham (Gal. 3:28,29). That is His kingdom which will continue to expand until He comes again to resurrection His own to eternal life and judges the nations who refused Him in this age. Israel needs to repent today before it is too late, when Christ appears to sit on the judgment throne (Matt. 25:31ff).
No doubt, but it is not the God of the Bible. It is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that get his attention.
When the Jews proclaimed their lineage, Jesus responded, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father." He then went on to declare exactly who was their father. It was not flattering, but it was true.
Abraham was a believer in Jesus Christ. "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." He was trinitarian just like you and me. I'm afraid Mr. Netanyahu does not share that view of God. His god is no different than the Muslim god or the Hindu god.
Sounds harsh, I know. But lineage does not save. "and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones."
We need to pray that God will continue to save those of the remnant that He has elected to eternal life. We need to be faithful in the gospel presentation to all people in all nations; Israel, Iran, China, whatever. No one should be comfortable with their view of God if it does not model the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of Scripture.
Questions and Answers:
1) What did Israel do just prior to 70AD that was so bad that God would scatter them for nearly two millennia....
Israel as a nation lost its sovereignty to the Babylonians in 586 B.C., not 70 A.D. 70 A.D. is when the city of Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus and his Roman Generals. Israel (in 586 B.C.) offended God because of her idol worship, it’s embracing of Pagan practices, and the fact that they did not listen to the prophets when God warned them. They lost their freedom as a nation due to it. Henceforth why they were in exile under the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans. Now, this is interesting. Jesus prophesied that the Temple would be destroyed. In A.D. 33, he said....
Matthew 24:1-2 (NIV)
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2”Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
That happened in 70 A.D. It doesn’t explain how and why. But like I said in another post, God’s vision of the future of Israel was so broad that one step could have taken hundreds of years before the step mentioned in the next verse, or even perhaps in the same verse took place. In our time period, we can say that Israel lost her sovereignty and she was scattered among many nations. It happened just as the Bible said it would. That’s all that really matters.
2) What did Israel start doing differently just prior to 1948AD, that God should bring them back into the land and promise never to scatter them again?
God showed his love and grace for them. After all, he still made them a promise. God does not go back on his promises. If he did, he would be a liar, and he would be insane. How? Because if he broke his covenant with the Jews because they did it to him, then he would not be God. He would in no way see it coming, and he would not be aware of their fallible nature. In reality, God is well aware of our fallible nature. He is not going to abandon a promise because the other end (a fallible one) is not going to honor their end of the deal. I have a man in my church who thinks that, and it bothers me because a promise is a promise. The establishment of the modern nation of Israel is in preparation for Daniel’s 70th week.
3) Why did God choose to leave so many Jews scattered in the world, even after reestablishing their homeland? What was special about the first half a million or so religious Jews (who were among those first “new Israelites” in 1948), that God relocated them to Israel to never lose their homeland - while God left all others to rot outside her borders?
A fire always begins with a spark. Once the fire spreads, it has the ability to consume materials on a relatively large and eventually massive scale. As such, this can be applied to the Jews.
Pertaining to the Jews, the year 1897 was the spark that led the new Zionist movement. On August 30, 1897, the first Zionist Congress was established. By 1900, 50,000 Jews began migrating to Israel. But it didn’t end there.
By...
1922: 84,000 began returning to Israel.
1931: 175,000
During the reign of the holocaust, most Jews were still dispersed among the many nations. After all, 6 million Jews were destroyed in the holocaust and still within the Europe nations for which Adolph Hitler was invading. By...
1948: 650,000 Jews were in Israel.
1952: 1,421,000
2001: 3.5 million’
2006: 5,313,800 (From the site you provided)
The nation of Israel is predominantly inhabited by the Jewish people. Some Jews decide not to live there. There is such thing as free will. Not every single solitary Jew is going to be “locked” within the borders of Israel, but it is a Jewish nation, a nation that was not around until the end times. Regardless of the details, God’s will still occurred. Also consider, the way things are going now. If America fell as a nation (a strong possibility), and Jews somehow survived, then I believe they would return to their homeland as well. The Jews are not restricted to be within the confines of the borders of Israel. The bible doesn’t say that. But he would plant his people back in their land (by placing the idea within their hearts), and they chose to migrate there. Choice still has to be regarded when it comes to God. God is not going to force them. Either way, the desert didn’t bloom in 1948 as it does today. That is in reference to the parable of the fig tree told by Jesus.
Either way you slice and dice it, I did not overwhelm and bombard my article with these marginal details. The point I made was the prediction and the end result. Aside from a brief description that may have led to the end result, that’s all that was needed. The point was made. God made a promise. God made good on that promise, and now that promise is becoming exactly what the Bible says it would in the last days. It’s as simple and straightforward as that.
So I guess from these statistics and timeline covering many decades you are ready to concede that the notion of modern secular Israel being “born in a day” is futurist fiction. It was born of political will by the nations, not an identifiable miraculous single event.
Add to this, as I have said, that modern Israel is not a “nation” in the biblical sense. Biblical Israel was governed in toto by three officers, prophet, priest, and king (1 Kings 1:34). Prophets spoke the Word of God. Priests administered the sacraments of God. Kings ruled by the law of God. These offices in biblical Israel we meant to prefigure the three-fold office of Messiah. There is no three-fold office in modern, secular, “democratic” Israel.
Again, where in the Bible does God indicate that He would regather Israel to the land while still in abject unbelief and dead in spirit, still rejecting Him has the God of the covenant?
I do not know what your definition of "exactly" is, but as I have pointed out in numerous posts the interpretation of these prophecies is shaded by the presuppositions of the interpreter. Even the use of a term like “the last days” does not always mean the same thing to different folks.
"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;"
"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."
There is no "exact" fulfillment of any specific prophecy going on in the world today.
How exactly do you define "Jewish people"? Are you using a humanist definition or a biblical one?
Is it anyone who is self-identified as a Jew? Is it someone who qualifies for the Israeli "law of return"? Does a Jew have to be physically descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob?
“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” (Rom. 2:28,29)
Using the apostle’s definition, how many in Israel qualify?
How has Israel existed “as a nation forever” in your estimation? Further, we read:
"Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Gen. 17:8)
How would you say that this has been fulfilled, given that “Israel” (as you might define it) has only occupied the land for a relatively short period of time since Abraham?
Topcat’s Question:
So I guess from these statistics and timeline covering many decades you are ready to concede that the notion of modern secular Israel being “born in a day” is futurist fiction. It was born of political will by the nations, not an identifiable miraculous single event.
My Answer:
It’s not a concession. Israel was born in a day. On May 14th, 1948 it was recognized as a sovereign nation. It has been recognized since then as a sovereign nation. Only God could have created this. Israel’s birth was unique and it was unique because God was behind it. Here is another analogy pertaining to the duration between the spark (1897) and the fire (1948)to help support my point. When you apply for a job, you always write down the duration for which you worked, you do not include the amount of time for which you wanted to work at the place you worked at previously. Those details are irrelevant. In 1897 Theodore Herzl pretty much sparked the want. Then, throughout the years, world events escalated to a point where it became a need. The need, especially after the Holocaust campaign was seen as a vitality.
I think I understand more that you are looking for the re-emergence of the biblical Israel to return. While the nation returned as a political nation, Israel is not as secular as you think. Israel, in my opinion, is in a gridlock, meaning that the orthodox Jews, the secular Jews, and the awkward political relationship between the Jews and the Muslims are preventing the re-emergence of the theocratic state. Orthodox Jews have been in the process of re-creating the theocratic Israel explained in the Old Testament for years. I remember in either 2002 or 2003, they finally had a kosher red heifer. In 2004, the re-establishment of the Sanhedrin was re-inaugurated after 1,600 years of absence. What does that mean? It’s interesting, but based on Daniel 9:27, and Daniel 11:31, the antichrist will provide the political clearance for which the Israelis can become what you are expecting.... a theocratic state. When the church is gone at the rapture, theocratic Israel will emerge, and replace the church as the single point of hatred in the world. THEN, THE WORLD WILL HATE ISRAEL BECAUSE OF GOD. A deluded world under the spellbinding control of the Antichrist and the existence of Old Testament style Israel in the midst of this will cause the world to go haywire.
Topcat 54, the point I’m trying to make is that the nation of Israel had to be in existence politically for the end times. That has happened. The works for theocratic Israel have been in place now for some time. Again, Israel is not as secular as you think it is. In fact, in my video library I have a tape that shows the relics completely prepared for use at the event of the building of the Third Temple. They all openly admit that they are waiting for the political environment for which it can return.
How has Israel existed “as a nation forever” in your estimation? Further, we read:
“Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” (Gen. 17:8)
When you take everything into consideration, and after Israel sees their Messiah face to face (the one they pierced), they will accept Jesus Christ. They will move to theocratic, Old Testament style Israel under the authority of the Antichrist. But half way through his peace contract, he will stop the sacrifices, declare himself as God, and Israel and will go through hell. Once this hell begins, I think, hopelessness and fear will come over the Jews. They will think, “now what?” When the moment arrives where the world comes after Israel, all hope will then be lost. What will appear as a moment of certain death, Jesus Christ will intervene, personally and physically on a white horse, as described in the Bible. He will stop the armies once and for all, and as creator, will remove the concept of war in their hearts.
Isaiah 2:4
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
God will keep his promises. Nothing can remove them. Even when man tries, he fails. Man is not above God, or his promises.
144,000 Claim:
Topcat: The Bible says nothing about 144,000 Jewish evangelists doing is a few years what faithful Christian have been doing for 2000 years. That is not “literally” found in Scripture.
My answer: Revelation 7:1-8 blows that claim right out of the water. They will be 12,000 a piece from the 12 tribes of Israel.
You said:
God has His people, the Church, made up of Jews and gentiles, the sons of Abraham (Gal. 3:28,29). That is His kingdom which will continue to expand until He comes again to resurrection His own to eternal life and judges the nations who refused Him in this age. Israel needs to repent today before it is too late, when Christ appears to sit on the judgment throne (Matt. 25:31ff).
Israel will repent when all hope is lost. The reign of the Antichrist is essential for Israel and the world, as people will be FORCED once and for all to make a choice. Either choose the Antichrist and live in the moment, the here and now, or choose Christ, die in the moment, and save your soul. Intense pressure moves people to take action, and if the concept of faith is dwindling, then sight will dominate, and if the antichrist can offer signs and wonders visually, then sight will be at war with faith. It will be one heck of a situation.
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