Posted on 02/16/2009 1:09:50 PM PST by TaraP
Folks expecting to go great successful guns with God in the end times without major saturations of humility are in for some startling awakenings, imho.
God is highly unlikely to allow folks riding on high horses to do great exploits for Him in these end times.
Thanks for the ping!
And you for your labors in the Vineyard for our Lord and Master.
GOD BE WITH YOU.
prayers for and Hugs to you and hubby.
What are the
PRESUMPTIONS
about why God seems to use very different words and phrasings when talking about events at or just after Armageddon vs
the seemingly earlier
being caught up to meet Him in the air?
There is a difference. And God doesn’t have differences in His Biblical wording without a reason.
Already done. I read his request and took care of it immediately. M
Thank you. I learned that in a Beth Moore study on Daniel (I highly recommend it to anyone) and we can read the signs of the times, the guideposts as it were. Blessings.
I agree. I feel in my spirit that this is what’s taking place. God has begun the process and we are players in a big chess game...
Thanks.
I can agree about no UNambiguous . . .
I don’t agree about no ambiguous.
As others have noted very well the Holy Spirit dwells in every believer, and he never leaves us, so we must leave with him.
The rapture- (I post NIV for easier reading)
‘No one knows about that day nor hour .. only the Father’ -Matthew 24:36
He’s talking about when the Holy Spirit is taken out, or the rapture. It is not the second coming, b/c He said it will last 7 years. So people who come to believe during that time will know when He’s supposed to return. In that same chapter He says ‘people were eating, drinking, marrying..’ Just as it was before Noah and the flood. Again, not talking about the second coming. During Trib, people will be busy fighting/running for their lives, not partying around. It’s the rapture.
Matthew 24:40 ‘Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left.’ Obviously one is a believer and he is taken, and the other is not and will remain. Why would God do this during Trib? He wouldn’t. The rapture.
Romans 5:9 - ‘Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!’ God’s ‘wrath’ is Trib. Believers now won’t go thru it. One could argue by saved He means he will help us thru it. But that’s not it, there will be many people who become believers during Trib and will have to die.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 - ‘Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.’
‘We’ meaning the believers living in the very last days, will not die. One could argue he’s talking about the believers who survive Trib to see Jesus at the second coming. But that isn’t it, b/c God says it’s a ‘mystery.’ But the fact that people will be alive at the SC is not a mystery.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 - ‘...and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.’ From the COMING wrath. ie, we’re taken out.
1 Thessalonians 4: 17 - [after the dead in Christ have been risen] ‘...we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.’ This is not the SC. The believers still alive after Trib will see him come down to earth, he doesn’t need to take them ‘in the air.’
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - ‘For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath...’ Again, we won’t have to suffer it. Even the believers during Trib will have to suffer, even if God shields them. Having to be in hiding and on the move is suffering his wrath. And again, some will die for their belief.
Rev 3:10 - ‘Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.’
Keep you from it, take us out. He promised no such thing to all believers during Trib. He even says some of them will die for refusing the mark of the beast, among other reasons.
To ‘test’ the whole world. The test is for those unbelievers. He has absolutely no need to test the ones who were faithful before Trib. We already accepted Him.
There are many other verses that point to the pre-trib ‘thief in the night’, you just have to put the pieces together.
Also, the believers alive at the SC will be the ones who repopulate the eath for 1000 years. They still have mortal bodies. That is not the believers of pre-trib, or the ones that die during Trib.
-sorry for the long post.
Seems to me Scripture would not speak of a “first” resurrection unless there was at least a 2nd.
I suppose the sequence etc. you postulate is quite conceivable . . .
I’m just not convinced it’s as clear as you seem to think it is.
At least it’s not precisely emphatically unarguably clear that your interpretation is emphatically the whole and only truth on those verses.
Thanks.
Quite plausible, to me.
Post as lengthily as you wish. I think you have a lot of wisdom and understanding I could learn from.
Well, here in this part of Revelation, we see the beast described...
Revelation 17:3-17
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.
5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.
13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.
14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
It says that the seven heads are seven mountains. In the Bible, mountains are a reference to kingdoms. It’s a beast that has seven heads, or seven kingdoms — which is the “composition” of the beast...
You’ll also notice that there is another beast that is described differently, in an earlier part of Revelation. One beast comes out of the sea and the other comes out of the earth. The one from the sea is from all the “peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues” (as described in verse 15). The beast from the earth, indicates a man.
Anyway, the seven heads are seven mountains (verse 9), which indicate 7 kingdoms. And it’s one of those kingdoms that looks like it was fatally wounded by miraculously recovers, and everyone marvels...
You said — After that comes the “second resurrection”, which, if you’re blessed, you won’t take part in, having participated in the “first resurrection.”
Well, the “second resurrection” is not explicitly stated, but only implied. But, I think that is correct, in terms of “identifying” it as the “second resurrection”. All the Bible actually says is that if you have part in the “first resurrection” then the “second death” has no power over you.
—
And then you said — “So, unless people are going to start positing more than two resurrections, that “first resurrection” of the blessed in Revelation 20 is that which Paul talks about happening upon the Lord’s return in I Thessalonians 4, after which we who are remaining will be transformed in an instant and caught up together with them to meet him in the air and, therefore, takes place after the coming of the beast and the false prophet and after their overthrow. There’s no room here, nor any mention anywhere, of a pre-trib rapture/resurrection.”
Well, *already* the Bible gives more than “one resurrection” — on the record. There is the resurrection of Lazarus from the dead. There were the many who were resurrected from around Jerusalem, having been dead and buried, and brought to life at the time of Christ’s resurrection. They wandered in and around Jerusalem and were seen by many. And then, there is the resurrection of the two witnesses in Jerusalem, having been dead in the streets for three days. They were raised to life and taken up, at that point in time.
So — already — we see that there are several resurrections on record, even before we get to say anything about the resurrection of those who are taken up to be with Christ.
What is being described here — in terms of the “First Resurrection” and the *implied* “Second Resurrection” — are “types” or “categories” of resurrections.
First Resurrection = resurrection unto eternal life
Second Resurrection = resurrection until eternal damnation
So, those from Jerusalem who were resurrected with Christ (the “first fruits” actually of the “First Resurrection”), the two witnesses raised from the dead in the streets of Jerusalem, those taken up to be with Christ in the Rapture (the dead in Christ and those still alive), those who will be raised at the time Christ returns to set up the Kingdom (those Old Testament Saints and those killed in Christ during the Tribulation) — all are part of the “category” of the “First Resurrection” (of being resurrected to eternal life).
The others, who are part of the “Second Resurrection” (i.e., which is implied, but not directly stated) are of the “second category” — being raised to eternal damnation.
That’s the “First Resurrection” (composed of several parts as we already see) and the Second Resurrection (composed of only one part, because they all wait until the very end and the Great White Throne judgement).
You said — “Also, the believers alive at the SC will be the ones who repopulate the eath for 1000 years. They still have mortal bodies. That is not the believers of pre-trib, or the ones that die during Trib.
That’s a key point. It was about 50 years before I got that particular point figured out... :-)
Anyway, the seven heads are seven mountains (verse 9), which indicate 7 kingdoms. And it’s one of those kingdoms that looks like it was fatally wounded by miraculously recovers, and everyone marvels...
I believe that’s an extrapolation . . . plausible but also hazardous to assume.
I think it’s wiser to assume first and foremost that God said mountains when He meant mountains unless he clarified or identified such in other Scriptures. Daniel interpreted a lot or was given the interpretation of a lot of the symbols he’d been given earlier in beasts etc.
I don’t know of another verse insisting that the mountains here represent kingdoms. They might. I don’t see it as a certainty.
You said — “... but from what I understand of Revelation, most of the larger countries are mentioned except the USA. China, Russia, Britain, one possible reference to Japan, but no America.”
Well, I would say that over half and maybe 3/4 of the nations in the world are not specifically mentioned, other than by generalities like “all the nations”.
Is Canada mentioned, or Mexico, or Brazil, or Peru or Columbia or South Africa or India or Australia or New Zealand or Iceland or — even — Spain or France or Germany or.... (and you can go down the list...).
The ones that are mentioned are Israel and the Islamic nations.
That’s where the conflict happens, between the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, concerning Israel — and — the false god of Allah and the Islamic nations of the world.
—
The U.S. is still there and still playing a part, although without its Christian population, since they will have been taken up in the Rapture (and that will be quite a devastating thing all by itself...).
America is not disappearing and/or “going anywhere”...
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