In Joseph Smith's day prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. (excerpt)

[restornu]

In Joseph Smith's day some of the most prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. Thomas Jefferson said:

I [Jefferson] am a real Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the preachers . . of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said or did.

They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man of which Jesus, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. . . . It is the speculations of crazy theologians which have made a Babel out of religion (Saul K. Padover, Thomas Jefferson on Democracy, 1939, pp. 122-123).

Writing to S. Hales in 1818, Jefferson wrote: "The truth is that Calvinism has introduced into the Christian religion more new absurdities than its leaders had purged it of old ones" (Ibid., p. 219).

On Jefferson's monument in Washington, D.C., is inscribed: "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." If his complete quotation were on the monument it would bring out the fact that Jefferson was speaking against the dergy of his day (Ibid., p. 119).

Benjamin Franklin, replying to a letter from Ezra Styles, president of Yale, said shortly before his death:

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left it to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes (Carl Van Doren, Benjamin Franklin, 1941, p. 777).

The first great work expressing the deistic feeling in America was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, considered to have generated the greatest stir of any book of its day. It made clear that Paine was not an atheist as some claimed, but a deist because of the tyranny and bigotry he found in the existing churches (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, 1793, p. 287).

Speaking of the period in America between 1670 and 1830, renowned theologian Paul Tillich has said, "First among the educated classes, then increasingly in the mass of industrial workers, religion lost its 'immediacy,' and it ceased to offer an unquestioned sense of direction and relevance to human living" (Roland N. Stromberg, Religious Liberalism, 1954, p. 1).

Carlyle has said of the Colonial Period: "An age fallen languid and destitute of faith and terrified of skepticism" (Ibid., p. ix).

Of this time Carl L. Becker has said, "What we have to realize is that in those years God was on trial" (Ibid., p. 1).

On another occasion, Thomas Jefferson said:

The impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, have established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the earth (Peter H. Odegard, Religion and Politics, 1960, p. 110).

It is also true that in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church and that those who did come to America for religious reasons did not come here initially to seek freedom of religion except for themselves. This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.

Peter Odegard also maintains this position:

Nowhere in the old world at the beginning of American colonization was there anything like religious toleration. . . . It is sad but not surprising to recall that even the religious dissenters who found refuge in America were, with notable exceptions, no more disposed toward toleration than the oppressors of the old world Obid., p. 9).

Historian William Warren Sweet says, "The rise of an intense anticlericalism was another cause of opposition to the churches." Further he relates: "The United States began as a free and independent nation with organized religion at a low ebb" (William Warren Sweet, Religion in the Development of American Culture, 1952, p. 92.).

[svcw]

Intriguing to be sure: page numbers, quotes and more questions - yet the response posted is: you are snide and sarcastic...........are you able to answer the questions posed? Just wondering.

[Monkey Face]

I recognize a trap when I see one.
I am not responsible for any written doctrine, no matter who the author is.

[Colofornian]

Post #229: Christ couldn’t pray to himself. [MF]

Post #170: There is only one God. He has only ONE Begotten Son, who is Jesus Christ... [MF]

Let's put the ramifications of these two together, shall we?

MF says only "one God." Jesus is apparently a separate being (his statement, "Christ couldn't pray to Himself") as a family relation to that "one God." But, then, that would make Him out to be someone separate -- less than divine (since if He was a separate, divine being -- that would make for at least two gods).

Bottom line: Typically, LDS say Christ "couldn't pray to himself" but then will turn right around and essentially (since they believe in one "godhead" of more than one personage) that Christ could pray to the same godhead, which, BTW, happens to include himself.

This shows you what happens when LDS do cartwheels to sound orthodox and not appear to be raging polytheists ("we believe in one godhead" or as in MF's words, "There is only one God" -- the latter being a sentiment not shared by the majority of Mormons).

On the one hand, they'll stress the "one" God...the "one" Godhead...Why? (because both the Bible and Book of Mormon does so, as well as a good chunk of doctrine & covenants)...but then on the other hand, they wind up attacking the "one Godhead" when they attack the trinity, "Well, Jesus couldn't pray to himself."

(Well, that's news that Jesus couldn't pray to the same godhead.)

[Monkey Face]

See #242

[Colofornian]

“Don’t cast your pearls before swine.” I read that somewhere! ;o]

(Are we back to '08 threads where we had an LDS person label Christians to be of the pork persuasion? Or are you referencing folks other than Christians?)

[Monkey Face]

BWA-HAHAHAHAHAHA!
You slay me!

[Colofornian]

This says this is an "excerpt" -- an excerpt from where? (Did I miss the original source of this being mentioned somewhere? And if I didn't miss it, why isn't it referenced? Is it common to post something as an "excerpt" and not give credit to the author or publisher?)

From this "excerpt" In Joseph Smith's day some of the most prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom.

So what? (Name me any period of time since Jesus came where there weren't "some prominent" people who were disgusted with the faith that followed Him...This wasn't unique to the early 1800s)

From the excerpt: It is also true that in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church and that those who did come to America for religious reasons did not come here initially to seek freedom of religion except for themselves. This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.

This is bad historical writing. "The colonial period" was a rather broad period -- early 1600s into the latter 1700s...and if you broaden it to include "Joseph Smith's day" -- as this author does -- now you're talking about a 200-year stretch (as Smith was born, I believe 1806 and lived to 1844). In this 200-year stretch, you've got the revival periods like 1727, 1790s-1800, 1830s...so to cast all these ebb-and-flow periods in one lump sum of "5 % of the population belonging to any church" is just outrageous!

Yes, many estimates of latter 1700s (before 1790s) claimed only 6-8% of the population were church members. Ian Barnes and Charles Royster, in their book, The Historical Atlas of the American Revolution (2000), said it was more like 10-30% by 1775: “By 1775, some 70 to 90 percent of European colonists were unattached to any church.” (p. 28)

The authors (p. 29) go so far as to provide a pie chart by denomination within each of the first 14 colonies the % of church membership among the Anglicans, Baptists, RC, Quakers, Congregationalists, Dutch Reformed, Presbyterians, Mennonites, German churches. Needless to say, these pie charts show slim church membership.

But again, Resty, your unknown author cited here cast a broad net, claiming, ...in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church

Barnes & Royster pointed out how church membership was at times quite high -- for example, during the Jonathan Edwards' years:

The construction of churches and congregations existed to help early settlers survive and to provide a focus for family life in the community. Between 1630 and 1660, New England church membership was between 70 and 80 percent of the adult population.” (p. 28 of Historical Atlas) [Higher % when you factor in kids]

Furthermore, Resty, your "author" then tries to extrapolate the low membership % during colonial times without...
(a) ...bothering to explain some reasons why church membership was low/lower...
(b) ...mentioning these lower points of membership were not occurring when Smith came out with his Book of Mormon (1830).

("A" above re: some reasons behind the low % of adult population as members included lack of churches in the frontier regions...along with the reality that black slaves -- prominent in the Southern colonies -- weren't allowed to join churches.)

("B" above re: 1830...Finney had his revival going in full bloom in 1830-1831...The Methodist Episcopal revival was in high gear in the 1830s...they doubled their numbers by 1840...Some Baptists claimed their revival years as being 1810-1850...with a home mission being a key 1832 spark...and camp meetings began in 1800 Kentucky and then spread to Tennessee...some revival authors (like James Orr) tie this to a 1792 "awakening" which expanded greatly in 1798).

Resty's "author": This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.

No, actually this presentation is an "indictment" vs. the historical discernment of the "author" and against the FREEPER who posted it!!! My bottom-line point I've made above is that this "author" deliberately ignores all these spiritual awakenings taking place during both the colonial period (1630 to 1660)...1727...1790s into early 1800s...as well as during the Smith period (1815-1831 in Smith's home of Western New York-- called the "burned over" district because so many revivalists had come through during that time)...

And that's what makes these "half-truths" an all-out lie, Resty...and you should be ashamed of such shoddy historical presentations! The fact is, though the author tries to state this, Smith's Book of Mormon didn't break thru during a spiritual "slump" in 1830 Western New York...there'd been 15 years of "revival" going on there! And it was accelerated all the more in 1830 by Finney!)

And the awakenings were evident elsewhere (Kentucky, 1800 and following; Tennessee ensued; New England had its ebb and flows; as did Ohio, etc. and all the many places Wesley had his camp meetings...)

[Colofornian]

Except for Resty, I didn't ping the rest of you for #247 -- but thought you might find it relevant to the poor historical writing of this unnamed "author" excerpt.

(Who wrote this again, Resty? Did you write this? And if you didn't, isn't that plagiarism not to at least mention the author's name if you've only taken that information from one source? Did I just look past that mention somewhere?)

[guitarplayer1953]

To begin with this country was founded on religious freedom, which has become the freedom of the most predominate belief system. This is the same additude that killed the Indians and caused many religious wars between Christians in Europe. How long you been here Elsie? Longer than the Mormon belief system? If not maybe you should be the one to leave. Have you been here longer than the Indians? No? Maybe you should leave.

[restornu]

Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 176: "Whosoever... does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist...," Brigham Young Oh please not this again so you don't think it is Joseph Smith a prophet of Jesus Christ, I do!

This is a commandment from the Lord it is the same that any one who does not listen to His servant of the Lord be it Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Joseph Smith

D&C 1
34 And again, verily I say unto you, O inhabitants of the earth: I the Lord am willing to make these things known unto all flesh;

35 For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.

36 And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shall reign in their midst, and shall come down in judgment upon Idumea, or the world.

37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled

. 38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.

Isa. 50:
10 ¶ Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.

Matt 23
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

con't

[restornu]

Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, page 289: "Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, ... that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith,.. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation-the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim-"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true"

So there you have it again...JS is/has compared himself equal to God.

This is so silly and it shows that the mainstream haven't been taught by Traditions of men the ways of God.

When the Lord through his priesthood annoits one they are given especially the prophet to speak for God in other words to be the messenger.

1 Cor 6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Rev 11
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Joseph Smith the humble servant is not above God Joeseph is doing the will of the Lord and follows the instructions of the Lord.

It is Thy will be done oh Lord on earth as it is in heaven!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

>>>This is a commandment from the Lord it is the same that any one who does not listen to His servant of the Lord be it Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Joseph Smith

Joseph Smith! HA!

Thank you Resty. You have a great sense of humor that brightens
up FR!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

>>>Joseph Smith the humble servant is not above God Joeseph is doing the will of the Lord and follows the instructions of the Lord.

Smith humble! HA! Thank you again Resty. I just love the
way you slip this stuff in for us all on an otherwise
serious thread.

[svcw]

This is a commandment from the Lord it is the same that any one who does not listen to His servant of the Lord be it Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Joseph Smith Finally then you do admit the JS places himself above or equal to Jesus Christ.

[svcw]

Wow a second post where you do admit the JS places himself above Jesus Christ, wow, never thought I’d see this day.

[restornu]

Don’t put your words in my mouth!

[Elsie]

You still haven’t backed up your statement!

An amazing charge! Considering...

[Elsie]

Some people will hate any religion and any people who follow that religion simply because it differs from their own.

Some peole call things 'hate' because reason fails them.

[Elsie]

Luke 3 states...

 

 

LITERAL Luke 3:22
|2532| and |2597| came down |3588| the |4151| Spirit |3588| - |0040| Holy |4984| in a bodily |1491| form |5616| like |4058| a dove |1909| upon |0846| him, |2532| and |5456| a voice |1537| out of |3772| Heaven |1096| occurred, |3004| saying, |4771| You |1488| are |3588| the |5207| Son |3450| of Me, |3588| the |0027| Beloved. |1722| In |4671| you |2106| I am delighted.

 

 

Strong's Ref. # 4984

 

Romanized  somatikos
Pronounced so-mat-ee-kos'

 

from GSN4983; corporeal or physical:

 

KJV--bodily.

 

 

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

8.  We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
 Joseph Smith

 

 

 

 

KJV Matthew 3:16
   And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
 

 

KJV Mark 1:10
   And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

 

 

 

Are you SURE that your reference is translated right??

 

---

---

 

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION
MATTHEW 3: 43-46

 

Jesus was baptized by John by immersion. (compare Matthew 3: 15-17)

 

  43 And Jesus, answering, said unto him, Suffer me to be baptized of thee, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

  44 And John went down into the water and baptized him.

  45 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water; and John saw, and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Jesus.

  46 And lo, he heard a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear ye him.

---

The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.

[Elsie]

It is not the churches but rather the heresies that are making the 19th famous for bad theology.

Jospeh Smith seemed to think otherewise...

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19   17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!   18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.   19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”