British Israelism - an expose

David M. Williams' Theological Essays ^ | David M. Williams

[P-Marlowe]

I suspect that British-Israelism derives itself from hyperdispensationalism.

More likely from the Legends of King Arthur:

ARTHUR:

There! Look!

LAUNCELOT:

What does it say?

GALAHAD:

What language is that?

ARTHUR:

Brother Maynard! You are a scholar.

MAYNARD:

It's Aramaic!

GALAHAD:

Of course! Joseph of Arimathea!

LAUNCELOT:

'Course!

ARTHUR:

What does it say?

MAYNARD:

It reads, 'Here may be found the last words of Joseph of Arimathea. He who is valiant and pure of spirit may find the Holy Grail in the Castle of aaaaaagggh'.

ARTHUR:

What?

MAYNARD:

'...The Castle of aaaaaagggh'.

BEDEVERE:

What is that?

MAYNARD:

He must have died while carving it.

LAUNCELOT:

Oh, come on!

MAYNARD:

Well, that's what it says.

ARTHUR:

Look, if he was dying, he wouldn't bother to carve 'aaaaaggh'. He'd just say it!

MAYNARD:

Well, that's what's carved in the rock!

GALAHAD:

Perhaps he was dictating.

ARTHUR:

Oh, shut up. Well, does it say anything else?

MAYNARD:

No. Just 'aaaaaagggh'.

LAUNCELOT:

Aaaauugggh.

ARTHUR:

Aaaaaggh.

[xzins]

Probably right.

Probably King Arthur's fault.

[ladyinred]

This is a particularly disgusting doctrine IMO.

[jude24]

And that is how we know the world to be bananna-shaped....

[P-Marlowe]

And that is how we know the world to be bananna-shaped....

That is my favorite line.

[HarleyD]

I didn't mean to imply that Judah did not have their share of problems. Only that Jeroboam started the “ten tribes” of Israel down the evil path as soon as they part company with Judah creating golden calves for the people to worship, developing fake religious holidays, creating altars, and attempting to kill God's prophets. All the bad kings are compared to Jeroboam (e.g. and King so-in-so did what was evil in the sight of the Lord following in the ways of Jeroboam). Interesting enough, God took home Jeroboam’s son, Abijah, home because “something good was found” in him towards the Lord. God didn’t want Jeroboam’s good son exposed to Jeroboam’s evil.

The first prophesy for God destruction of Israel comes at this time when He says:

For the Lord will strike Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water; and He will uproot Israel from this good land which He gave to their fathers, and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, because they have made their Asherim, provoking the Lord to anger. He will give up Israel on account of the sins of Jeroboam, which he committed and with which he made Israel to sin.” 1 Kings 14:15-16

Again:

The sons of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them until the Lord removed Israel from His sight, as He spoke through all His servants the prophets. So Israel was carried away into exile from their own land to Assyria until this day. 2 Kings 17:21

Again:

Then the king of Assyria carried Israel away into exile to Assyria, and put them in Halah and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes, because they did not obey …” 2 Kings 18:11

It’s absurd to think there was some type of special blessing to the ten tribes of Israel. They never lived a godly life from day one. And Israel was never lost as we can see from 2 Kings 17-18. Someone seemed to know where Israel went.

[HarleyD]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was WRONG.

That being said, to say that Israel received blessings for their transgressions or that no one knew where Israel was sent is equally wrong (per verses I have quoted). I'll wait to hear you admit that you're wrong.

[HarleyD]

"They also received this joint promise in Hosea 1:10-11 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered;

Last time I looked we were measured and numbered. It's called the US census.

Hosea is a foretelling of the reformation of Israel which occurred with Nehemiah and Ezra. We are not the "children of Judah and children of Israel" unless we're of Jewish descent. I think I would have a number of Jews who would agree with me.

"Which of the worlds great population groups today do you believe are the children of Israel as promised above?"

None. Both Jews and Gentiles who believe in the Lord Jesus are children of the promise. We're called Christians and our homeland is not of this world.

[HarleyD]

"The United States of America was initially populated almost entirely by some of the children of Israel from various parts of Europe."

And no other nation I suppose had "children of Israel".

Hosea 1:10 certainly is a very specific example of a very special blessing promise given only to the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

The term "sons of Israel" which is how it is referenced in Hosea 1:10 is used 605 times in the Old Testament in the NASB version. It does not always refer solely to the ten tribes. So my question is how can you distinguish who are the "sons of Israel" talked about in Hosea?

"However it is classic Biblical relationships based on specific Bible verses that are the point of this inquiry."

I've noticed you've conventently ignored my above references especially about where the children of Israel where settled in 1 Kings 17-18.

[Zack Attack]

HarleyD:
The term "sons of Israel" which is how it is referenced in Hosea 1:10 is used 605 times in the Old Testament in the NASB version. It does not always refer solely to the ten tribes. So my question is how can you distinguish who are the "sons of Israel" talked about in Hosea?

Floyd R Turbo:
My Error! Your point. I was thinking other verses while attributing this one. {sigh.}.

While the early part of this chapter divides the Israelites into North and South, verse 10 is referring to ALL the offspring of Israel. It is NOT exclusive to the northern tribes. All Israelites are included in this "sands of the sea" numbering.

Floyd, I would say no error at all. Hoshea was a prophet to the northern kingdom of Israel. In verses 1-9 YHWH prophesied through him to the northern kingdom by 3 children. Jezreel(God will sow), Lo Ruchamah(No Mercy) and Lo Ammi(Not My People). Here it is being said that Israel(northern kingdom), YHWH will sow their seed into the nations, they will no longer receive mercy and will not be a people unto Him. Verse 10 says that YHWH is speaking to those to whom He said "you are not My people", the northern kingdom of Israel.

Hoshea 1:10-11
(10) Yet the number of the sons of Israel will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered; And in the place where it is said to them, "You are not My people," it will be said to them, "You are the sons of the living God."
(11) And the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint for themselves one leader, and they will go up from the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.

Verses 10-11 tell that this curse will not be forever. The promise of fruitfulness lies with Ephraim, whose descendants were to become a "fullness of the gentiles", a phrase that Paul picks up on in Romans, this same promise of blessing given to Abraham who would be a father of many nations.

Hoshea restates this in chapter 2.

Hoshea 2:23
And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them that were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Peter picks up on the Hoshea "not My people" prophecy as well.

1 Peter 2:9-10
(9) But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
(10) Once you were no people but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.

Hoshea 1:11 speaks of that day when Judah and Israel will no longer be divided, but will bring about restoration and will come together under one king, Messiah, son of David. This is an important promise that will take place under the fulfillment of the New Covenant.

Many blessings

[HarleyD]

”I don't have a serious problem with this citation from 2 Kings for the simple reason that 2 Kings was written to trace the history of the kings of Israel and Judah from the time of Solomon (970-931 B.C.) to the Babylonian captivity (586 B.C.). It is not a definitive history of the Israelite people from either Israel or Judah. That doesn't mean it is not useful, it is just not the last word….Both Kings and Chronicles are well known by scholars to have "fanciful" interpretations of other things as well, and many internal conflicts. If we look closely we may find an account of Senator Kerrys time in Cambodia. (He was in Viet Nam, you know.)”

Let me interpret what you’ve just said Floyd, “If a verse doesn’t fit into my way of thinking it must not be right. Besides we know the Bible has “fanciful” interpretations.”

Sorry, I’m not buying this bridge. You may wish to build your theology on this belief but it’s foundation is all sand.

[HarleyD]

"In addition, the unknown author of 2 Kings may well have been writing based on his last available but slightly dated information...Now you can address the main points of the post: "

Sorry, Floyd. I can't answer your question because it clearly says in 2 Kings 17-18 where the Israelites settled. If you believe this is "dated information" and choose to rely upon unnamed outside sources for your beliefs then there's not much to discuss. With all loving kindness, using phrases like "dated information", "They were not reciting the word of God, merely giving their version of history", "we don't know the target market for this history or who it was tailored to please", etc calls into question your entire beliefs.

If you don't believe in the inspired Word of God we're at an impasse. I would recommend you examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith as Paul asks all of us to do. (2 Cor 13:5)