Police enforcing public drunkenness laws at local bars

Fairfax Times ^ | 1/2/03 | Michelle Zimmermann

[Defiant]

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Thursday 2 January, 2003

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Police enforcing public drunkenness laws at local bars

By Michelle Zimmermann

December 31, 2002

Fairfax County Police are targeting Reston and Herndon area bar-restaurant patrons suspected of having one too many drinks.

Police have been taking them outside for sobriety tests and, if they fail, arresting them for public drunkenness.

The owners of local bar-restaurants are complaining that these tactics are too aggressive. But a county police spokesman says the practice is nothing new and, besides, helps prevent worse abuse that can lead to alcohol-related driving accidents.

According to Virginia statutes and the Virginia Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control (ABC), any place with a liquor license is considered a "public place." Accordingly, police are allowed free access to such places, and, should they find any customer over the legal alcohol limit of .08 or suspect a customer of being intoxicated while still being served or present in an establishment, police can write that person a ticket for public intoxication.

Such methods, say police, are not new, despite protests from bar owners that they have never heard of police coming into their establishments and enforcing drinking laws.

"I've been an officer for over 17 years, and we've been doing it on and off over my entire career," said police public information officer Sophia Grinnan.

"As much as officers hate to spoil a good time, they hate even more to go out at 2 a.m. and work a death of anybody that is alcohol related," Grinnan said.

However, bar owners and patrons present during such police raids over the last several weeks said what police have been doing is overly aggressive.

Richie Prisco was the general manager on duty at Champps in Reston's Plaza America on Sunset Hills Road on Thursday, Dec. 19, when he said police came into the bar and started taking patrons outside.

"They were talking to one of the guests, then physically pulled him off the barstool," Prisco said. "They were really aggressive and nasty."

Champps General Manager Randy Gross compared the police tactics to those of Hitler's Gestapo, and said he feels he is owed an explanation.

"I would like a meeting between myself, other establishments and the chief of police," Gross said. "I just want them to tell us why they're doing this and what we can do to prevent it."

Grinnan said it is not unusual for police to crack down extra hard on alcohol-related offenses during the holiday season, when more alcohol is typically consumed. Plus, Grinnan noted, a ticket for public intoxication is a far lesser offense.

"It has less repercussions than driving drunk and is a safer way to battle DWIs," Grinnan said.

Other bars in the local area have also had visits from police, including Jimmy's Old Town Tavern and Ned Devine's, both in Herndon.

Jimmy Cirrito, who owns and runs Jimmy's Old Town Tavern, said 10 or so officers who showed up in SWAT-like garb were intimidating and unnecessary. He also noted that police seemed to be tagging people at random, despite police telling bar owners they had undercover officers in the bar, calling in and giving descriptions of particular individuals.

"They tapped one lady on the shoulder--who was on her first drink and had just eaten dinner--to take her out on the sidewalk and give her a sobriety test," Cirrito said. "They told her she fit the description of a woman they had complaints about, and that they heard she was dancing topless."

Cirrito said the woman passed the sobriety test and was allowed to return to the bar, but, soon after, police pulled another woman outside who had arrived shortly before police came into Jimmy's Old Town Tavern.

"They made her count backward, say the alphabet, tell them where she lived, how she got there, how she was getting home," Cirrito said. "She had just gotten there five minutes ago in a cab."

Cirrito insisted that the last thing he as a bar owner wants to see is any of his customers get hurt, and, for this reason, he said, he'll call a cab for and cut off drinks to anyone they think has had too much to drink. But he won't just send someone out in the street who appears to have had too much to drink until he is sure the individual can get home safely.

"The law states I have to push these people out on the sidewalk," Cirrito said. "And then, what can happen? A [lone] woman could get mugged, or who knows what, going to her car by herself."

He added it is aggravating for him, especially as a small business owner, to be targeted by police and face possible fines from the ABC.

"It's disappointing and sad for people like me who don't own a chain," Cirrito said. "I don't sit in Beverly Hills and count my thousands. I dump trash and scrub floors. If a place like Chili's or Ruby Tuesday's gets an ABC violation, it's like a fly landing on your arm--they just brush it off. For me, it's like a killer wasp sting."

Graham Davies, who owns and runs Ned Devine's, said he thinks the police action is mainly the "right thing done in the wrong way."

"It damages our business, but think of the repercussions. It could be bad--if someone does walk out of here drunk and kill someone, we're not responsible, but indirectly we probably are. I understand why they're doing it, but it seems there's a better way to do it."

Grinnan responded to this sentiment by saying bar owners were probably just ruffled by seeing the uniform in their bars, even though undercover officers are common.

"If it sends a strong message out, then that's what we want to do," Grinnan said.

And, in response to bar owners' complaints that the raids were overly aggressive, Grinnan said there are two sides to every story.

"I've had bar owners come up to me [and] ask what is going on," she said. "But I've also had some approach me aggressively, telling me I couldn't be there and I was violating their constitutional rights. We love to give explanations of what we're doing because it has an impact, but officers don't have to give up their game plan. That is just a courtesy."

©Arcom Publishing Inc. - Fairfax/Fairfax Station/Burke/Springfield/Annandale Times 2003

Reader Opinions

and share your thoughts with other readers!

Name: Matt Ayres

Date: Dec, 31 2002

This is totally insane. What happenned to living in a free country? I don't have time to elaborate on my feelings right now but if you are taking a poll, count me in for "ridiculous"

	Number of Opinions: 1	1 - 1 of 1

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[Defiant]

More encroachment by the police state.

[beckett]

Instapundit remarked on this outrageous violation of the Fourth Amendment, and provided this link to the Fairfax Police, for anyone who wants to complain about the practice.

[Fiddlstix]

Bump

[Defiant]

Where do they get off proclaiming a private bar a public place? This could be extended to wedding receptions, hotel rooms and eventually to everyone's living room, if they are drinking there. I guess the claim is that allowing drinking makes it public somehow. Ridiculous. Thomas Jefferson and GW are rolling over in their nearby graves.

[ladylib]

Guess you'd be safer in Fairfax County if you just stayed home and didn't patronize bars and restaurants that served liquor.

It's up to bar and restaurant owners to have their government officials call these nazis off. Bar and restaurant owners still pay taxes don't they? They still employ people right -- waitresses, waiters, cooks, busboys, bar help? If I owned a bar and the cops harassed my customers, I'd close it down and move to a more customer-friendly environment.

In these tough economic times, you can't afford to piss businesses off and the fines the county gets aren't going to cover the loss of a business.

[sharktrager]

Ah yes, another brilliant headline.

Sounds like they are arresting anyone in the bar who's sober.

[Defiant]

I don't think the headline is misleading. I fail to see how it implies that the police are arresting bar patrons who are sober, since to enforce public drunkenness laws is to arrest people who are drunk. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe you left off a sarcasm tag.

If anyone defends this police tactic, I will despair for this country. If people go to bars in cabs, or with a designated driver, what is it to the police? And by the way, there is a difference between the BAC for driving under the influence and the BAC for "public drunkenness", or there should be. Public drunkenness should require some overt conduct on a street or in a public area, such as staggering around, barfing, screaming nonsense, etc. That might be a different level than .08.

[drjoe]

Old news. Last St.Patrick's day members of Fairfax County's finest went on a binge arresting people for DIP at a number of bars near the Loudoun County line. The word around that this was in retaliation for the owners of the establishments not paying their 'baksheesh' Of course this could never happen in America.

[drjoe]

Old news. Last St.Patrick's day members of Fairfax County's finest went on a binge arresting people for DIP at a number of bars near the Loudoun County line. The word around that this was in retaliation for the owners of the establishments not paying their 'baksheesh' Of course this could never happen in America.

[dagnabbit]

[Ramius]

Hey Tacis... get your jackboots on. You ought to love this one. Maybe they were smoking while they were drinking.

[swarthyguy]

Talibanesque....

Revenue shortfalls must be getting critical. Nice gig for a cop -- go to a bar undercover and id drunks....

This new puritanism certainly can make some parts scary places.

[T. Jefferson]

This story is about kickbacks not being paid to cops.

Off duty cops are some of the heaviest drinkers I've met...and they all drive when drinking...and I know a bunch. We had an off duty cop in town drive straight into a toll booth killing himself, and nearly killing others. His BAC was .18 , and the headlines spoke of a tragedy. If we did that, we'd have been potential murderers, attorneys would be suing a restaurant, new laws would be written, etc.

[T. Jefferson]

Solution: make all places "private clubs" and become
BYOB. Screw the state and the cops out of their kickback
bucks and taxes.

[razorback-bert]

I could name a city(X42's old stomping grounds) where the cops use to stop out of towners (and locals) walking back to the largest hotel from a popular watering spot, cite them for PI and collect the fine on the spot.


Houston's vice squad used similiar raids to shake down small local bars in the 1980s.

[supercat]

Accordingly, police are allowed free access to such places, and, should they find any customer over the legal alcohol limit of .08 or suspect a customer of being intoxicated while still being served or present in an establishment, police can write that person a ticket for public intoxication.

I wonder if MADD will come out against this practice, on the grounds that it encourages moderately intoxicated (0.08%-0.14%) people to drive home rather than sitting around bars and risking getting raided.

[CRICKETS CHIRPING] Nah, that would require them to be merely against drunk driving rather than against drinking and against driving.

[supercat]

How many drinks does it take for an 75lb woman to reach 0.08% BAC? My impression is that a single strong drink (12oz @ 6% or 6oz @ 12%) will suffice. Suggesting that such a woman should not drive for an hour after having such a drink would be reasonable; busting such a woman for having such a drink just before the police arrive is obscene.

[Defiant]

You are absolutely correct, except there is no such thing as a 75 pound woman. Except in the case of Mohammed and Jerry Lee Lewis.

[putupon]

How come it's the "LIBERAL" areas of the Commonwealth that seem to use the most outrageous police tactics? And why with all the illegal aliens, many from from terrorist supporting nations, the govt. feels it's resources sending in swat teams to sports bars fishing for drunks, during the holidays no less?

JACK BOOTED GOVERNMENT THUGS BUMP

[Lion's Cub]

We discussed this on another thread the other day.

For those who watch Fox, John Gibson said last night that he'd be taking this up on his show tonight.