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To: FITZ
I think race can exist but it depends on how someone wants to define it. We're still all descended from the same people (group or couple depending on evolution or creationism), it still takes making some kind of cut-off ---in time or geography and it all seems very arbitrary where you'd make the cut-offs.

The fact that all dogs are descended from wolves does not mean that we can't categorize certain dogs as having features that match a pre-defined description of Basset Hounds or Poodles. The fact that some dogs look like a kind of a mix between a Basset Hound and a Poodle does not mean that we cannot define the difference.

That the difference between humans should be immaterial to the way a government treats someone, or the rights they are entitled to, or to their status in life should not negate an objective look at their differences. Why someone would want to persue such a scientific path is a different matter. The Nazis wanted to prove that Germans were superior. Most grants are given now in an effort to prove there are no differences when such differences clearly exist. Both are persuing a political end not a scientific one.

In the end we are all humans, with dreams, aspirations, and emotions. We all want the best for our children. We all want a government that treats us with equal opportunity yet preserves our ability to seize that opportunity to rise above the mean based on our own knowledge, skills, and abilities even if that equality of opportunity puts some individuals behind other individuals (regardless of race) in outcome.

Freedom. Free to succeed, free to fail.

Security. Safe from failure, safe from success.

58 posted on 12/21/2002 1:25:14 PM PST by FreedomCalls
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To: FreedomCalls
The fact that some dogs look like a kind of a mix between a Basset Hound and a Poodle does not mean that we cannot define the difference.

Dog breeds are a little different though because whoever decides what the dog is supposed to look like can decide what differences belong and which don't. If I decided to make a breed of red-headed humans, I could say certain hair tones or skin tones didn't fit and throw them out but who gets to say who belongs to one race or another? At what time does one race break off another race? I'm not saying we can or cannot define races but it seems pretty arbitrary and up to the definer and humans aren't quite like dogs because we don't have the same kind of breeding programs. Sort of like Indian tribes now ---who gets to say who is still an Indian ---some of those casino owners don't exactly look that much Indian.

59 posted on 12/21/2002 1:34:28 PM PST by FITZ
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To: FreedomCalls
That the difference between humans should be immaterial to the way a government treats someone, or the rights they are entitled to, or to their status in life should not negate an objective look at their differences.

It is not objective to look at individuals as part of a group. It is not objective to classify individuals statistically. It is not objective to tar a whole group with the sins (or genetic traits) of some in that group. This study is racist, it tries to look at people not as human beings, not as individuals, but as racial groups. Further it tries to give scientific support to the point of view that one can look at individuals as part of a group instead of as individuals.

There is therefore no objective reason for this study. It is a shameful use of public moneys to support racism and has absolutely no scientifically useful purpose. And BTW - what the heck is NASA doing funding this nonsense? What does it have to do with exploring space?

142 posted on 12/23/2002 4:43:33 AM PST by gore3000
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