Lord of the Rings Fans Disillusioned: Aragorn is Anti-American Peacenik Retard!

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1039034342 ^

[Burr5]

It would appear, based on this account of Viggo Mortensen's appearance on Charlie Rose last night, that this nascent superstar (based on his wonderful acting in the Lord of the Rings films) is actually just another America-hating imbecile- a man who plays a hero, yet fails to see the heroism of U.S. fighting men, or the justice of their cause. BTW, I didn't see the show, as I don't get Charlie Rose, but I saw a photo of Viggo in the "No More Blood For Oil" T-shirt. What a moron. Very disappointing.

[breakem]

These threads are always a big hoot. Some of the fans are disillusioned, some are not, and some don't give a damn and just like the movie or the character. It is a mistake to mix artistic performance with politics. He made the mistake and you do the same.

[HairOfTheDog]

A few of us had this conversation earlier today, and I hope with their blessing, I will cut and paste some of that here... It is interesting to postulate about him, because he clearly mourned the changes he was seeing way back in the 30's...

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To: Sam Cree

I think there is room in Tolkien's philosophy for lots of people to feel at home in his ideal.

I dunno... I don't particularly claim Tolkien as a conservative of today. I think to try to fit him in a party platform trivializes a great fantasy. His world is not bound by our reality, our motives, or our problems.

I think Tolkien would hate today and not necessarily be conservative. He was English, after all, and even English conservatives are not like US... He was mourning industry and its impact on the world, so I hardly think he would be on the capitalist bandwagon. I think he would hate big business and big cities full of skyscrapers as much as he hated the industrial age.

He painted an ideal that was beautiful, but can no longer be. An ideal that I share with him. The Shire as a system of governance does not work in modern society with millions of people. That doesn't make it any less attractive as a place to escape to in our hearts.

45108 posted on 12/04/2002 8:59 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog

"I think there is room in Tolkien's philosophy for lots of people to feel at home in his ideal."

I do too, except for leftists, it's pretty clear that there's not room in it for them, many of them even realize it.

I don't think it's even possible to pin down a definition of what a conservative is today, as FR clearly demonstrates, the views that fall within "conservatism" are extremely varied. A Leftist can, though, be easily defined, as the Left follows specific philosophies.

I do believe that Tolkien's views would fall somewhere within the conservative pantheon, but would undoubtedly be at odds with much of today's conservatism, especially the aspects of it that you point out.

Come to think of it, lots of folks on FR make me mad, too.

"He painted an ideal that was beautiful, but can no longer be"

I usually think that the "Shire" is in the same Anglo Saxon tradition of individual liberty that our founding fathers drew from. Perhaps you are right that it can no longer work...I like to think we should retain as much of it as we can, without our traditions, I believe we will eventually fail.

45120 posted on 12/04/2002 9:36 AM PST by Sam Cree
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To: HairOfTheDog

I dunno... I don't particularly claim Tolkien as a conservative of today.

Tolkien was an anarchist -- or a monarchist like Hans-Hermann Hoppe. (I think viewing the Ring of Power as government is very much applicable.)

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"You can make the Ring into an allegory of our own time, if you like: and allegory of the inevitable fate that waits for all attempts to defeat evil power by power"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
_The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ p. 121 (1995)

"In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit."
--ibid. p. 243

"Of course my story is not an allegory of Atomic power, but of Power (exerted for domination)"
--ibid. p. 246.

"We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron’s throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise."
--Elrond {character}
_The Fellowship of the Ring_ p. 261

"The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on."
--ibid. pp. 178-179

"I am not a 'democrat' only because 'humility' and equality are spiritual principles corrupted by the attempt to mechanize and formalize them, with the result that we get not universal smallness and humility, but universal greatness and pride, till some Orc gets hold of a ring of power--and then we get and are getting slavery"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
_The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ p. 246 (1995)

"My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) – or to 'unconstitutional' Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word state (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate!"
--ibid. p. 246

"If we could get back to personal names, it would do a lot of good. Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and the process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people. If people were in the habit of referring to 'King George's council, Winston and his gang', it would do a long way to clearing thought, and reducing the frightful landslide into Theyocracy."
--ibid. p. 63

"Power is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales"
--ibid. p. 152

"What Saruman says encapsulates many of the things the modern world has learnt to dread most: the ditching of allies, the subordination of means to ends, the 'conscious acceptance of guilt in the necessary murder'. But the way he puts it is significant too. No other character in Middle Earth has Saruman's trick of balancing phrases against each other so that incompatibles are resolved, and none comes out with words as empty as 'deploring', 'ultimate', worst of all, 'real'... None of them but Saruman pays any attention to expediency, practicability, Realpolitik, 'political realism'
--Tom Shippey
_The Road to Middle Earth_ pp. 108-110.) (1992)

45168 posted on 12/04/2002 12:01 PM PST by John Farson
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To: John Farson

anarchist does fit... true rural anarchy with no need for rules...

I cringe at the use of the word because I live in an area so over-run with the pierced and spiked hair "anarchists" responsible for the WTO riots in Seattle and such things. They have changed the meaning of the word for me.

And I am not sure even Tolkien's vision of Anarchy would ever work in the real world... not a modern one with real people in it. It works in the Shire, and it is a lovely place to visit.

45173 posted on 12/04/2002 12:09 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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[Argus]

Tolkien was a WWI veteran (British Army), a very devout Catholic, and a Little Englander who deplored the effect of modern industrialization and corporatization on the intimate village and country life he loved. His vision of the perfect society was the hobbit village, but he was in no way a "Green" or a socialist, and he was reportedly impatient with hippies who misinterpreted his books. Sounds like a conservative to me.

[HairOfTheDog]

As you can tell, I hate nit-picking.

I shall try to avoid your nits in the future! ;~D

[Dan Day]

Have you ever met an actor? They can be very strange. They certainly aren't anything like the characters they portray, and it is silly to expect them be.

The one that surprised me most was Harrison Ford. He always plays such bold "manly" men, with a commanding voice.

Then I saw him on an interview, and he was timid, soft-spoken to the point of being breathy, and came across as a slacker surfer dude. It was quite a contrast.

Another eye-opening interview I caught years ago was with Madonna. She was her usual brash, in-your-face personna. Until the host brought Madonna's father out on stage to sit by her and answer a few questions... Suddenly, she morphed into an ordinary middle-class midwestern girl. The host kept trying to provoke her into being brazen again, and she finally said with a bit of embarassment, "I just can't, my *father's* here!"

[Walkingfeather]

I enjoy his acting.... however he enjoys the loco weed TOO much.

[Walkingfeather]

I enjoy his acting.... however he enjoys the loco weed TOO much.

[Sam Cree]

Hi, Hair have to go out, back later.

One thing that Viggo hasn't figured out is that oil is of no use to "evil corporations" whatsoever, except that they make money with it by satisfying the demand from where it really comes, the "little people."

[Little Bill]

Read the Book. I read it when I was in Viet Nam, care packages, very well written. I reread it every couple of years>

[KneelBeforeZod]

I saw an interview with Wilford Brimley who is a good actor IMO. But he was a total weirdo. Not politcally...just strange.

[HairOfTheDog]

Viggo is strange too... he has this running-stream-of-conciousness way of talking... weaving in and out of the topic at hand... meandering and then just trailing off... I found it sortof like a lullaby to listen to in another interview I saw where he was discussing his poetry.

[habs4ever]

Tolkien reads to me like a Russell Kirk type of conservative, and maybe can be found, to some extent in contemporary Britain, in a writer like Peregrine Worsthorne.But he was a product of his time, so I think it could be hard to make him up to date as much as we'd like.Very much like attempting to pigeonhole Orwell for modern tastes.

[HairOfTheDog]

Right. he lived in a time where the rural English countryside was being transformed from agriculture to industry... he found it ugly. So do I. Was he a green? - Not in the way greens are today. But he loved rural life, and would not have enjoyed the cities and their skylines or modern lifestyle. What he saw in the 30s was only the start of it.

[habs4ever]

So, Viggo is another incoherent, inarticluate actor? Gosh, they are thick on the ground ;-) Ever heard Warren Beatty speak? It's worse than lancing a boil.And he is a considered sooooooo smart by Hollywood lefties, which goes to show you that mumblers who squint and look at their shoes during interviews are actually deep thinkers ;-0

[Billthedrill]

He's an actor, and hence an idiot until otherwise proven. Not that the latter is likely.

[HairOfTheDog]

which goes to show you that mumblers who squint and look at their shoes during interviews are actually deep thinkers ;-0

LOL!

[habs4ever]

Those are the instincts of a conservative, and it's a long British tradition.Check out Roger Scruton and you may find his writing of a similar vein.He and his ilk also have a distrust of industry, commerce and entreprenurialism,so they can appear to be opposed to materialism, when maybe it is just the pace of change they find abhorent.Who knows.

[Paul Atreides]

I have read it. However, I will probably read it again. I have read Dune several times and find something new init each time.

[Paul Atreides]

I don't think he will rise above his current level of stardom. Once an actor does genre work, it doesn't bode well for their becoming a household name. There are exceptions to the rule, but not many. He may be hoping that his little tirade will get him a big contract in a major non-genre production. Then again, he may be as clueless as he sounds.

[Little Bill]

I never liked "Dune", couldn't get in to it, I was always a space cowboy in the Fantisy and Science Fiction mode. John Campbell for ever.