Roswell Incident Had Victims, Program Says

AP | 11/22/02

[Davea]

Roswell Incident Had Victims, Program Says

By RICHARD BENKE | The Associated Press 11/22/2002

ALBUQUERQUE - While he told the world that a weather balloon went down in Roswell, an Army general had in his hand a memo telling Pentagon brass of a UFO crash with "victims," according to a new television documentary.

A computer analysis of that memo, held by Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey during a July 1947 press briefing, is the "smoking gun" of the Roswell Incident, researchers say in the documentary being broadcast today on the Sci-Fi Channel.

Using a digital photo scanner to enlarge and enhance words printed on the folded piece of paper Ramey held, and using another computer program to select the most likely words, researcher David Rudiak, who has a Ph.D. in physics from UC Berkeley, found two key phrases: "the victims of the wreck" and "in the 'disc' they will ship."

With the textual study plus University of New Mexico archaeological findings from one of three alleged UFO crash sites, science fiction seeks to close the gap with fact, producers say.

A photograph taken July 8, 1947, in Fort Worth, Texas, by James Bond Johnson of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram shows Ramey clutching a communique to Washington, D.C., while he displays a deflated weather balloon just hours after other Army officers in Roswell had reported a UFO crash.

It was one of a series of inconsistent military reports about the incident, which has become part of American mythology.

"Unless national security is at stake, there is absolutely no reason to keep this information from the public," said Thomas Vitale, a Sci-Fi Channel vice president. "Whatever crashed at Roswell, let us know what the truth is."

The Air Force had responded to a 1994 call from the late U.S. Rep. Steve Schiff, R-N.M., by saying it had no information on the Roswell Incident. Schiff, an Air Force reserve judge advocate general's officer, then took his query to the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress.

In 1997, the Air Force acknowledged the weather balloon had been a false cover story, but a new story also was called into question. In a report written by Lt. William McAndrew, the Air Force suggested reports of alien bodies in the wreckage must have originated because of a crash-test program in which mannequins were dropped from balloons. The mannequins did not come close to matching 1947 descriptions of alien bodies, and the crash-test program was not introduced until 1953, Rudiak said.

Sci-Fi, guided by longtime Roswell UFO researchers Tom Carey and Don Schmitt, commissioned William Doleman, an archaeologist with UNM's Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, to excavate the alleged initial crash contact point on the ranch where the late Mack Brazel worked as foreman.

Doleman said he knows little about the Roswell Incident but agreed to excavate the site using purely scientific methods because it is "culturally significant" and because so much of what is circulated about the Roswell crash landing is based on hearsay. What was needed, Doleman said, was physical evidence.

"So this project is a very bold step by people who claim to know what happened and where it happened," Doleman said. "What makes it bold is they were willing to go out there and look for physical evidence."

Details of the excavation are being kept confidential until after today's premiere. But Doleman said he agrees "that obviously something happened in July 1947 in southeastern New Mexico." After his work there, though, he said, "I'm still uncertain" about UFOs and alien beings.

The documentary will introduce some witnesses who have not been heard from publicly before, attesting to the existence of alien bodies in the wreckage of the "flying disc," Carey said by phone from his home in Pennsylvania.

"This is where we loaded the bodies," he quotes one New Mexico witness, Robert Slusher, as saying. Slusher, among those appearing in the documentary, was part of a B-29 crew that he said loaded bodies up through the plane's bomb bay at the Roswell Army Airfield.

Three victims were supposedly recovered from the final crash site, and a team of archaeologists, coincidentally, were in the area doing research on ancient Indians at the time, Carey said. Among them was Curry Holden, an archaeologist from Texas Tech in Lubbock, whom Carey located in 1992.

"Curry Holden said he saw everything - the craft and the bodies," Carey said. Holden died a few months later.

Carey, an investigator for a private corporation, said he started looking into Roswell 12 years ago "as a hobby."

But it became more than that. And now, he said, he and Schmitt are in a race against time, as witnesses become scarcer.

©Santa Fe New Mexican 2002

[Quix]

True, true.

But I am thankful that Scripture says

IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, the very elect would be deceived. Evidently the earnest believers who have set their faith and hearts on God and Christ's Blood/Salvation--will have some Holy Spirit strengthening and discernment to protect them.

[Quix]

Accurate observations from life and

TRUE WISDOM in your words.

Thanks.

[SlightOfTongue]

You're welcome. Also see my reply (#178) to foreverfree.

[Quix]

Don't know how energetic I'll be about posting here major points from DISCLOSURE. If there's enough interest, I might be persuaded. I did mark up several sections.

It is, however, worth reading in toto--at least it was to me. I'm mostly weary of UFO books because so much is so redundant if one has been reading them for 35 years. But recently--especially post Greer, some newer bits of the puzzle seem to have been surfacing. Certainly a LOT HIGHER quality of first hand sources have been going on record with their names and lives. And, a LOT more of them.

BTW, I'm typing this while STARGATE is on the SciFi channel. Been a while since I've seen it.

I don't think Greer has yet grasped as much as he thinks he has. And I don't believe all the information as straightforwardly as he seems to. I still believe that the ET's in cahoots with satan et al are feeding tons of greatly mixed lie/half-truth/truth toward duping the population of the globe toward the creation and support of the global government and the rule of the AntiChrist.

I don't believe as MANY of the races Greer believes are wholesome and kind through and through are, in fact, that way. He seems to think they are all wonderful except for a very small minority.

[Yea! Ra dies in a nuke explosion. Long live good and apple pie.]

I do believe that we are being set up to increase the arms workable for attacking UFOS's in a context where they are all construed as destructive--in a process centralizing world government and increasing the power and control of that government.

But there is an ace in the hole where the government is also construing them as wonderful helpers of the human race. So it can play all sides against the middle to it's own increase.

It also makes increasing sense to me that MJ12 or it's equal is divided between those who want disclosure and those who are terrified the populace will torture them to death for their botching the whole thing for so long. Greer suggests amnisty as the only way to get them to come out of the woodwork and implement real disclosure at the government level.

Of course, at least a significant number of ET races sound like they are ready to trigger global awareness whether the government(s) cooperate or not. Supposedly some are more than annoyed to be taking a supposedly bum rap by government teams doing things under the guise of being ET's when the ET's would not be doing that sort of thing--at least not so brutally, not exactly that sort of thing and not so callously etc. Who knows what the truth is in all of that.

BTW, it has been suggested/assumed that I have a ping list on this topic. I don't but am going to contact those who SEEM to be interested to see if they would like to be on such a list. If there are those I don't contact by FREEPMAIL about such--and you WOULD like on such a ping list, please let me know. I'm going through the messages now to glean likely suspects.

Anyway--I guess the above constitutes some of the points from Disclosure.

Blessings,

[Quix]

The glaringly offensive evidence would certainly indicate you are sadly too correct for comfort.

Heh Heh.

[Quix]

One of my Christian friends insists she's the daughter of the man she characterized as Einstein's closest personal friend--a fellow scientist.

When she was say around 12-14, her dad asked her if she'd like to see a UFO. She said yes. He said, OK, he'd arrange it. Some days later, maybe before breakfast, I forget, he went to her and asked her to go outside the front door with him. There, floating above the street and curb was a standard disc shaped UFO--I think one of the 30' or so models.

She said she had the capacity to contact them any time she wanted but that she'd foregone that long ago as it jangled her spirituality too much given all the complexity and uncertainties she still had about plenty of the ET side of things. She's a fiercely devout Pentecostal type Christian.

Her father's been dead a long time. I think she's in her 40's or 50's.

She also asserted that it was her understanding that Einstein had worked out some cosmological things that completed more of the unified field theory stuff but which were still classified.

I have no way of varifying or not what she said. She has always seemed real authentic and truthful in her relationship with me.

[Quix]

Greer's book has more than a schematic.

[Quix]

I think the shaved chimps idea is about as crazy and silly as the weather balloon idea.

The facts are toooooooo far stranger than even such chimps. Just doesn't fit anything close from the perspective of any of the first hand participants, observers and their family members.

[Quix]

BTW,

Greer in his new DISCLOSURES 570 page book has GREAT NUMERS of MUCH BETTER SOURCES WHO KNOW MUCH MORE AND WORKED MUCH MORE FIRST HAND with discs, ET's and the whole 9 yards.

My brother was more a "distant-close at hand" observer. I won't elaborate on that.

[BlackbirdSST]

I think I've spotted your problem. Oh really! Please then, without the diatribe, explain. You have all the answers, so please enlighten me, great one. Blackbird.

[dinodino]

As long as we're giving suggestions, perhaps you should try applying a higher standard to your "evidence." For example, you mentioned MJ-12, which I seem to recall has been discredited as a hoax. Remember, there's a good-sized industry out there composed of folks who survive by selling UFO books to the gullible. Every extraordinary claim (and alien visitation certainly qualifies) requires extraordinary proof.

I would be absolutely 100% thrilled to the bone to see proof of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligent visitors to Earth. I support efforts to determine whether or not aliens have visited this planet, PROVIDED the searchers apply scientific methods and standards and SUBMIT THEIR RESULTS FOR PEER REVIEW.

[Quix]

I think the MJ-12 thing has gone back and forth in terms of being "true" or not. I haven't kept up with it.

The peer review thing will be a moot issue soon enough.

Besides that, Greer has tons of quality peers of highly ranked scientists with lofty positions asserting a long list of things about this whole ball of wax.

I'm comfortable with my treatment of various qualities of evidence. Besides as I've said dozens of times. It's still difficult, too early in some respects, to filter out fact from disinformation.

But at least SOME broad strokes or themes SEEM to have plenty of validity to them.

I'm certainly not against caution and insistance on reasonable proof. But a type II error is no more saintly than a type I error.

[MHGinTN]

For those of us who believe what is written in the Bible is true, the fact of extra-terrestrial visitation is not in question ... Angels are definitely extra-terrestrials. Where do they dwell, where do they come from, what is the nature of their 'home world' ... these are questions now asked in the framework of seeking scientific proof for visitations by extra-terrestrials, but these same questions applied thousands of years ago and still have not been answered definitively. Is it sacrilegious to asked of Angels as extra-terrestrials? I don't think so. I believe the Angels/Angelic visitations described in scriptures are credible accounts ... but of what? And that's the same question now asked of UFO events and these visitations are likely to be occurring --perhaps not in the numbers being reported, because of hoax, confusion, lack of data for the government rresearch-- so why not get really 'down and dirty' and pursue these events to understand their significance and implications for our future? Poopooing is hardly productive and certainly adds nothing to discovery.

[dinodino]

You are massively full of used food, my friend. What is this, "it's too early to filter out," "broad strokes or themes SEEM", "goes back and forth in terms of being 'true'," stuff? Please. Open your mind and use your brain when you're reading crap by von Daniken, Strieber, Cooper, et al. These guys prey on the gullible.

[VOA]

bump

[dinodino]

In fact, I asked for proof, if you'll reread my posts. How do you expect to discover the truth without proof?

[MHGinTN]

I join your call for proof ( I too would like to peruse hard facts and physical evidence), but how much do you think the following added to this thread if what we're asking for is debate and data and proofs for peer review?...

To: Quix
Sorry, I'll make sure I add
Alien Invasion and Paranoid Conspiracy Theories for Dummies to my nightstand reading pile...
172 posted on 11/23/2002 8:30 PM EST by dinodino
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

[Quix]

GWARSH! THE SOUND OF REASON AND SANITY!!!

YEA!

[Quix]

I don't think much of Daniken.

I think Streiber has been duped by the enemy--especially with his THE KEY volume of experiences.

And if you don't like the reality that the MJ-12 issue has been proven, disproven, proven however many times--then poor you for disliking a part of history. Whether given documents of MJ-12 were/are valid or not; whether the group was or is no longer or still is called MJ-12 or not--it seems 99.9% certain that there has been such a group for at least 50+ years.

It seems exceedingly likely at this point that as some of Greer's sources assert--there's a conflict within the group about going public.

You can go on hiding your head in the sand if you wish. You can build umpteen mansions of cards to justify your head in the sand position if you wish. You can pretend your mansions of cards are rigidly held and exercised principles of reason and logic if you wish.

Please excuse me if I don't believe you. Please excuse me if I think your notion of logic and your criteria of evidence exceedingly flawed. I say again. A type II error is no more saintly than a type I error.

[Quix]

How do you expect to live comfortably and more or less at peace in a complex universe where the quality of "PROOF" one may prefer is rarely available--yet--realities of existence, daily choice and at some points--life and death choice REQUIRE one to make serious decisions on the bases of flawed evidence.

You must live in quite a pickle or ball of knots always waiting for perfect proof that never comes. No wonder this subject and discussion is so disconcerting to you.