Posted on 10/23/2002 1:04:07 AM PDT by Roscoe
Frustrated by the Libertarian Party's failure to make progress nationally, Jason Sorens GRD '04 decided the best course of action would be to take over Wyoming. Or maybe Alaska.
The plan, which Sorens calls "The Free State Project," is ambitious. It calls for moving 20,000 people -- including the one additional Yalie who has signed on so far -- over the next nine years to a sparsely populated state where they would take to the ballot boxes in order to repeal most drug and gun laws, eliminate the income tax, and privatize most government-run industries.
So in July 2001, he posted an essay on the project on the Internet. Within a few days, he had over 200 e-mails from people who were interested.
"The response was positively overwhelming," he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at yaledailynews.com ...
They do nothing of the sort. The revel in the feds asserting power over the states. Especially when a state tells the feds to pound sand on drug laws.
That's the good thing about the internet, you can always find someone as nutty as you to discuss your nutty ideas with.
apparently you have thought about this, also.
With the viscious cycle of Democratic vote fraud, court stacking, and socialist immigration, (each begets the other) these things get contemplated. I believe this country was founded on the principle of freedom and private property rights. I believe a barometer of the level of freedom in this country is the percentage of people working for the government or using the government to live off the producers vs. the percentage of people in the private sector. When this percentage starts to improve, then I'll have hope that this ship can be turned around from the course to socialism it's been on since 1932.
my thoughts are very similar, though I am more skeptical about the work force/industrialization idea, because I am unsure of the size of the real estate which the founders could purchase.
If each person, including business owners, who wanted to do this liquidated and used this money to purchase new land it should go quite a ways.
I guess I am thinking of something more like Singapore, Liechtenstein or some place like that. Certainly no corporate tax (or income tax for that matter) is step 1.
I see nothing wrong with a low flat income tax. It could be put explicitly in the constitution...no citizen would be taxed more than at a 10% rate. Refining the constitution to explicitly make law equal taxation would be of the highest priority. No progressive tax rate system, no punitive taxes. How would you finance defense? Tariffs would discourage corporate activity. We need to encourage business and corporate activity as much as possible to provide revenue for the defense. NRST maybe, but I think that would encourage goods to be bought offshore and hurt domestic business.
Hard money, also. And the other points you made, including some sort of trade/defense treaty (again, perhaps like Liechtenstein/Switzerland....then again, that border is so porous it is imperceptible).
Yeah, we'd start out with socialist enemies on all sides. When German leaders refer to our president as Hitleresque and their population agrees, that should be seen as a very big sign that they are not our friends anymore and will rise against us if given the opportunity. They especially wouldn't like a colony of American conservatives next door.
I do like that some concept of what ordered liberty is all about would seem to be a necessary precondition to immigration, wouldn't it? Without such a check you have two generations, maybe three, and then you are finished.
Yes just like the early 1900s after the massive immigration then. It only took 2 or 3 generations then FDR was voted in and immediately start redistributing wealth.
Please re-post because I think this is a fairly important discussion.
Yeah, our courts are failing to uphold the integrity of the ballot box, and now with Democratic vote fraud alowed to go on unchecked, we're beginning to face the same situation our founders found themselves in...we're being taxed with no representation. "No Taxation Without Representation" was their cry. And the less representation that we get to protect ourselves from kangaroo courts and unfair elections, the faster this nation turns into the nations that our immigrants fled from in the first place. It's a deadly quickening spiral downward.
So, how well do you know the real estate market for small countries or islands?
Let's see, there are 40 million Republicans in America. Let's say 20 million would want to go in waves. The more of us that go, the more unbearable it becomes to those who believe in freedom, justice, and private property, and therefore it could feed on itself. Let's see...New Zealand is on the same latitude south that the midwest is north. A good latitude to build the character of man, as Plato would say. Real Estate is 10% the cost of real estate in America in a lot of cases. It's already mostly Christian, so there shouldn't be a culture clash. .It's 104,000 square miles, or 71% of the size of Japan. But Japan has 126 million people while New Zealand has 3.5 million people. OK, let's add the 20 million Republicans, that makes 23.5 million people or 226 per square mile, roughly the same population density as Illinois. OK, we could convince the government of New Zealand to relax their immigration laws if we promise to start out on the south island with our own state laws. The carrot to the current government would be the revenue from the supercharged business environment due to our tax structure. Kind of like Hong Kong was to China. Once we got enough Republican immigrants to outnumber the natives we could call for a referendum to make our constitution the law of the land. New Zealand recently passed a referendum to change the structure of their government so maybe it's no big deal to them. Voila...we have ocean on all sides, no enemies for at least a thousand miles and a friendly neighbor immediately to the west (Australia). We would preserve our freedoms through selective immigration, by constitutionally applying equal tax rates, and by putting a constitutional check on the courts. Then if the Queen would just let us go without a revolution....:^)
What would happen to anti-defense, anti-business American liberals without Republicans there to protect them and give them jobs? Hmmm...it wouldn't be long before they were threatened by enemies...we could let the leading corrupt liberals be taken into captivity, go in and save the rest American people at the last hour, amend the constitution to reflect what we learned in our Republican experiment, and then make our Republican New Zealand an American state. (OK, I'm really dreaming with this last paragraph...:^)...)
And socialist with those oil payments.
Yes, and reality is that Germany and Japan quickly established themselves again after being burned to the ground. Things can move fast in modern times.
I WAS talking about a " brave new world ", NOT the take over of a state. Your ad hominems are especially stupid, when you start of claiming that I said that which was NOT the in my post. You obviously have no idea about the history of coinage ( from Ancient Rome through the 19th century ) , nor basic English.
It doesn't have to be every coin ever minted, it could simply be Krugerrands and Eagles, it's not the name of the coin, it's the gold content. The gold content is known in these two examples.
Do you know what the word impecunious means ? Do you understand that a country, with little funds, even IF that country's monitary system is based on the Gold Standard, doesn't mean a bloody thing ?
20 million Americans would have wealth especially in a country where real estate was much cheaper starting off.
Oh, and FYI ... just because the USA was based on that stantard, when we started, other nations did NOT think that we were worthy of much. Go read up on American history !
Yes, but that's what we used to establish credit. It takes real money to establish credit. Once established, fiat money will work, for a while anyway.
The FFs were NOT Libertarians, the article, upon which this thread is based, was a LIBERTARIAN article. What's the matter, don't you read the article of a thread, or are you just ignoring it all, so that you can berat me, because I'm staying on topic and you'd rather childishly play " Let's pretend " , on a Conservative forum ?
The article is based on a Libertarian takeover of a state. ConservativeDude and I are slightly off-topic, true. It happens a lot though.
There's absolutely no point in responding to any of the rest of your solophistic, sophmoric , delusionally pathetic, silly post. This isn't " rocket science " ; however, it is certainly beyond your abilities to discuss. Try reading the beginning of threads and know at least a little bit about what you are attempting to talk about, before you make a fool of yourself, on the rest of this thread and others. Here's a helpful hint ... this has absolutely NOTHING to do with Conservative / Republican / normal people ... it's a Libertarian screed and you neither understand that, nor what Libertarians stand for. Just give up and go play " let's pretend " with your friends, someplace else. :-)
We're not violating the rules of this site. We're not advocating the overthrow of this government. We're simply discussing what we would do differently to protect freedoms. Freedoms have been slipping away for the last 70 years especially. One of the best ways to discuss how to avoid this slippage is to come up with a hypothetical where we can discuss what we would do different if given a chance, back to the drawing board, so to speak. I have my four ideas: Equal taxation, selective immigration, a constitutional check on the courts, and the clarity of the first amendment on public property.
No thanks, I don't make a religion out of it. :^)
Oh yeah, Germany and Japan ( totally idustrialized nations prior to WW II ) quickly established ( you mean RE-ESTABLISHED ; but that is the incorrect word as well ! ) themselves after being burned to the ground. Both countries were totally burned to the ground and their head shamens waved three clumps of saurkraut / seaweed , respectively, as they were flown over each nation, by their own teams of charming piggies. (/sarcasm )
Historical facts don't mean much to you, do they ? Or, is it that you don't know any ?
Twenty million Americans would be wealthy , if Libertarians set up their own nation ? Are you reading what you write ? Ever take any courses at all in economics ?
You want to play hypothetical games, where real life facts don't matter at all ? GO TO SOME OTHER SITE / WRITE FREEMAIL TO YOUR PLAYMATES. You can't / aren't doing anything of value ( nothing that you are capable of even getting off the screen ) by sounding like some BS session in someone's dorm room, in a lower tier boarding school.
And the dollar is counterfieted. Coin shaving is not a big enough problem to sabotage an initial gold-based system any more than counterfieting is to the dollar as the young United States proved. We existed and grew on gold coins for a long time.
Oh yeah, Germany and Japan ( totally idustrialized nations prior to WW II ) quickly established ( you mean RE-ESTABLISHED ; but that is the incorrect word as well ! )...
I said "established again".
...themselves after being burned to the ground. Both countries were totally burned to the ground and their head shamens waved three clumps of saurkraut / seaweed , respectively, as they were flown over each nation, by their own teams of charming piggies. (/sarcasm ) Historical facts don't mean much to you, do they ? Or, is it that you don't know any ? Twenty million Americans would be wealthy , if Libertarians set up their own nation ? Are you reading what you write ? Ever take any courses at all in economics ?
It couldn't be done in a month, but it doesn't have to take 70 years either. The size of the businesses being imported could be ramped up over time. How long did it take some of those mining towns to grow? Not very long. Working and planning together make it theoretically possible. It could start out just as corporate HQs being moved in to avoid hiring laws. Once a business felt it had the support and the people in place, construction and residential construction could be strategically managed. If I remember right, 75,000 were moved in to an mostly uninhabited area to do the Manhatten project. Follow that model initially only with the private sector. Henry Ford did something similar.
You want to play hypothetical games, where real life facts don't matter at all ? GO TO SOME OTHER SITE / WRITE FREEMAIL TO YOUR PLAYMATES. You can't / aren't doing anything of value ( nothing that you are capable of even getting off the screen ) by sounding like some BS session in someone's dorm room, in a lower tier boarding school.
This topic is relevent to stopping the slippage of freedom. You've been all criticizing and no solutions. What do you propose to stop the slippage of freedoms? Liberals have taken over the universities, the entertainment networks and Hollywood, and now the courts to do anything they want. The only thing that saved us in 2000 was one extra Supreme Court judge. How much longer can we go on relying on one judge? They get the Supreme Court and that's their final piece, what then? A majority of American people have grown to reward injustice with admiration (Clinton) and power (Lautenberg). What's your answer to this? Democrats break more and more laws every year and there's no one to stop them. Where is this going? What do you propose to stop them?
Oh, backwards. It's another triumph for Libertarianism and Somalia's "almost ideal" anarchy.
Something to be glad for.
Nah, as your own quote demonstrates, Libertarians saw the "anarchy" of Somalia as an opportunity to help people out of "almost-total anarchy" -- by helping the Somalians to build water wells, a fishing industry, and a judicial system.
It is you, Roscoe, who lyingly pretend that Libertarians wanted Somalians to stay in Anarchy. The fact is, Libertarians were attempting to help the Somalians feed their starving children and develop the Rule of Law... until the project leader unhappily died before the project's full fruition.
But by celebrating the "failure" of this Libertarian enterprise to bring Somalians out of Anarchy and help them develop food and water resources and a judiciary to prevent suffering, starvation, and death, Roscoe celebrates the death of every black child in Somalia who has starved or died of thirst as a result of the "failure" of this Libertarian enterprise.
YOU are the one who has OPPOSED and borne False Witness against this Libertarian's attempt to bring Somalia out of anarchy and help her people develop Food, Water, and a Judiciary; so YOU have made the choice to become Roscoe: Free Republic's very own cheerleader for Starving Black Africans to Death.
Of course, you could avoid this title by simply admitting that you LIED about the Libertarian's attempts to bring Somalia OUT of "near total anarchy", and develop Food, Water, and Judicial resources in Somalia (and ask the forgiveness of everyone to whom you lied, of course); but until you RECANT your slanders, you have simply placed yourself in the position of celebrating Black African suffering, starvation, and death.
And beg God's forgiveness for your Sins of False Witness.
Or, you can continue to celebrate the "failure" of this libertarian enterprise and continue to celebrate the starvation of black children, as you have ghoulishly done so this entire thread.
The choice is yours.
Libertarians are not interested in killing people merely for holding the wrong opinions.
Frankly, such behavior is characteristic of, shall we say, "non-libertarian" Political Movements.
And you know it, #3Fan... no offense meant, but it really is a Bearing of False Witness, to insinuate that we Libertarians would "stone you to death" for holding errant political opinions. It's a Lie, a violation of the Ninth Commandment. It isn't necessary, nor funny. Why would you even bother? I never said anything so vile and slanderous about you, you know.
best, OP
Good grief.
In the absence of Libertarian influences, the "constitution" adopted by Somaliland enslaved that benighted Country as yet another Repressive Shari'ah Islamic Tyranny.... and you applaud this.
Article 5: Religion
1. Islam is the religion of the nation, and the promotion of any religion in the territory of Somaliland, other than Islam, is prohibited.
2. The laws of the nation shall be grounded on, and shall not be valid if they are contrary to Islamic Sharia.
3. The state shall promote religious tenets (religious affairs), and shall fulfil Sharia principles and discourage immoral acts and reprehensible behaviour.
4. The calendar shall be the Islamic Calendar based on the hijra and the Gregorian Calendar.
Barely a year after Moslem terrorists murdered 3,000 Americans in cold blood, Roscoe applauds and celebrates the establishment of more breeding grounds of Islamofascism -- because at least they're not Libertarians!!
Like a rabid dog, Roscoe places his sociopathic hatred of Liberty even above the blood of his murdered fellow-countrymen. But then, we knew that already... such is the nature of Roscoe's soul.
Your quote is a fabrication. The actual quote:
Somalia was (and is?) an almost ideal anarchy in the years after the military fiasco of the United Nations. Michael was also very active in instructing the local chieftains in the principles of a "Kritachy". According to Michael those people already lived in a kind of kritarchy which made his advice fall on fertile soil. A kritarchy is a land that is solely governed by "judges". His ideal was to turn Somaliland into a libertarian country.
Somalia, more than any nation on earth, fits the vision of Libertarianism's worst ideologues. To them, the children of Somalia are expendable pawns to the cause of "ideal" anarchy.
borne False Witness
Irony isn't a strong enough word.
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