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U.S. 5th Circuit Declares Gun Posession A 'Crime Of Violence'
US Courts.gov ^ | 10/11/2002 | 5th Circuit Court

Posted on 10/14/2002 4:22:48 PM PDT by tarawa

This appeal presents the question whether the crime pf possession of a "prohibited weapon", specifically a sawed-off shotgun, under Texas law constitutes a crime of violence under Federal sentencing guidelines.

Ruben Serna pleaded guilty to possessing a firearm as a convicted felon in violation of 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1). At sentencing, the district court found Serna's previous state court felony conviction for possession of a prohibited weapon was a crime of violence and enhanced his sentence on that basis.

The indictment underlying this previous state court conviction identified the prohibited weapon as a "shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches." This type of weapon is commonly known as a sawed-off shotgun. It is reasonable to conclude that a sawed-off shotgun, when possessed unlawfully, is possessed for violent purposes only.

(Excerpt) Read more at ca5.uscourts.gov ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: banglist
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That's just an excerpt. It's so much more convenient when the Federal courts can just read our minds now
1 posted on 10/14/2002 4:22:48 PM PDT by tarawa
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To: tarawa
The 5th is on our side...
2 posted on 10/14/2002 4:24:43 PM PDT by go star go
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To: tarawa
bump
3 posted on 10/14/2002 4:25:11 PM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: tarawa
In the 30's cowboy movie classic Republic Film's "Law and Order", the hero character played by the famous actor Harry Carey slings a short barreled shot-gun as an effective self-defense weapon.

The "sawed-off shotgun" craziness is just that -- insanity under judicial cover. Common sense and reason it ain't.

4 posted on 10/14/2002 4:28:15 PM PDT by bvw
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To: tarawa
More spittle thrown on the 2nd Amendment.
Where is the President and Attorney General?
5 posted on 10/14/2002 4:39:46 PM PDT by watcher1
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To: bvw
I also recall a young James Caan in El Dorado, with Bob Mitchum and John Wayne. IIRC, Ed Asner was the bad guy: what a preview of coming attractions! His character died like a pig, satisfactorily according to the clime of the times.

This business of imputing state of mind to an instance of possession bothers me. If a guy possesses a pint of Turkey, does that imply intention sufficient to convict him of drunken driving and manslaughter, even though the tax stamp is unbroken? Possession of a rock of cocaine -- does that sufficiently imply armed robbery to go ahead and convict the possessor on apprehension?

It all sounds a little too Judge Dredd for me.

Defense motion for continuance denied -- Kaboom!

6 posted on 10/14/2002 4:41:33 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: tarawa
This ruling, if not incompetent, is a psychotic encoding of metaphore into law. Law is charged with dissecting out specifics from a cloud of obfuscation, not obscuring specifics and concise meaning through metaphor. This judge should be discharged from his bench, immediately.
7 posted on 10/14/2002 4:44:03 PM PDT by RLK
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To: lentulusgracchus
Oh boy, don't get caught with $5000+ cash on Amtrak! The railroad dicks love the bounty -- you're a narcotics trafficer, simply for carrying the cash!
8 posted on 10/14/2002 4:45:40 PM PDT by bvw
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To: tarawa
This is absolutely preposterous.

Here are some of the Orwellian highlights:
Posession = Conduct
Possessing a shotgun with less than a certain length barrel = involves conduct that presents a serious risk of physical injury to another.

Their reasoning is essentially: "because Congress says the gun is bad and has no legitimate use, the gun will jump up and start killing people nearby."

I am trying to think of a silver lining. Perhaps if the USSC took the case, they would learn that short shotguns have non-criminal uses (militia uses) and overrule the Miller case that has been the thread that is keeping the NFA alive.
9 posted on 10/14/2002 4:45:57 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
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To: RLK
Allow me to plagarise somewhat.
If the Judge possesses a penis, he should be arrested for intent to commit violent rape.

I think there is a subliminal message in all of this. ;)
10 posted on 10/14/2002 4:56:14 PM PDT by martian_22
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To: watcher1
Where is the President and Attorney General?

Supporting it, what else?

11 posted on 10/14/2002 5:01:14 PM PDT by templar
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To: tarawa
The indictment underlying this previous state court conviction identified the prohibited weapon as a "shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches." This type of weapon is commonly known as a sawed-off shotgun. It is reasonable to conclude that a sawed-off shotgun, when possessed unlawfully, is possessed for violent purposes only.

There are so many places we could go with parallel reasoning...

Is it reasonable to conclude that possessing a CD burner, is possessed for copyright infringement purposes only?

12 posted on 10/14/2002 5:03:58 PM PDT by Chemist_Geek
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To: tarawa
The guy is a convicted felon. I thought we wanted honest citizens to be able to own guns for self defense but that guns should be kept out of the hands of crazy people and convicted felons. Has that changed?
13 posted on 10/14/2002 5:04:42 PM PDT by doug from upland
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To: martian_22
If the Judge possesses a penis, he should be arrested for intent to commit violent rape.

Good point, poor metaphor. The judge is safe.

14 posted on 10/14/2002 5:05:31 PM PDT by irv
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To: Beelzebubba
... they would learn that short shotguns have non-criminal uses (militia uses)

When I was a boy, in Oklahoma, a long time ago, many of my friends fathers had old sawed off 12 gauges left over from their fathers times. They were used mostly for hunting in blackjak thickets, not criminal or militia use. My guess is that when they were restricted they were probably mostly hunting weapons. I'd be willing to venture that most of them never got registered either.

15 posted on 10/14/2002 5:06:48 PM PDT by templar
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To: martian_22
Allow me to plagarise somewhat. If the Judge possesses a penis, he should be arrested for intent to commit violent rape.

-------------------------------

Unfortunately, this type of looseness of thought is being asserted by the woman's liberation movement and is apt to be asserted in court, with success as more people in juries and elsewhere adopt it. Life in this country has become a college freshman English class where a person receives an "a" for creativity by discerning as many vague and bizarre alegories and metaphors as possible, while avoiding the concrete. We are being trained to think nuts as a form of intellectuality. This is one reason I enjoy conversation with uneducated people. "This is a tree. This is a shovel. That is a bird." You get straigt observations and answers.

16 posted on 10/14/2002 5:14:13 PM PDT by RLK
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To: tarawa
I have a friend who is a gun dealer. He once purchased the entire lot of police evidence guns for a single price. Included were some pretty nice guns and a few junkers.

One of the cheap ones was a Raven. The dealer didn't carry that type of cheap gun and sold it to me for $5.00. I would never have bought it except I planned on using it as a trade in to avoid the waiting period. Anyway I shot the little gun a fair amount and it really was a pretty good gun. It was reliable and pretty accurate too. I eventually did use it just like I had planned but would never call it a bad gun.

17 posted on 10/14/2002 5:16:23 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: yarddog
Oops!

I thought I was replying on the thread about the Florida kid suing the Raven distributor.

18 posted on 10/14/2002 5:18:04 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: tarawa
John Wayne On His Political Philosophy

"I have found a certain type calls himself a Liberal...Now I always thought I was a Liberal. I came up terribly surprised one time when I found out that I was a Right-Wing Conservative Extremist, when I listened to everybody's point of view that I ever met, and then decided how I should feel. But this so-called new Liberal group, Jesus, they never listen to your point of view..."

"If everything isn't black and white, I say why the hell not."

19 posted on 10/14/2002 5:20:39 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK
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To: doug from upland
The guy is a convicted felon. I thought we wanted honest citizens to be able to own guns for self defense but that guns should be kept out of the hands of crazy people and convicted felons. Has that changed?

----------------------

It has not changed, and shouldn't be changed. Law regarding that area should be enforced --but strictly under that rationale. The statement of violation should be strictly linited to that rather than being a statement of metaphorical poetry that has no place on the bench or any other part of the courtroom. If no concrete physically violent act was committed, a person should not be judged guilty of that act through application of metaphor or other vagueness of language, regardless of whether or not he broke some other law.

20 posted on 10/14/2002 5:26:05 PM PDT by RLK
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