AUTOPSY AND INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS ON THE DEATH OF CHIEF NEGOTIATOR

08/23/02 | Harris County Medical Examiner's Office, Houston Fire Department Fire/Arson Investigations

[COB1]

About three months ago, under the advice of the Texas Attorney General's office, I wrote a registered letter to Joyce M. Carter of the Medical Examiner's Office of Harris County in Houston, Texas, requesting the coroner's report on Herbert Paul Meadows, known to us as CHIEF Negotiator, who died in a fire at his house on October 4, 2001.

That report along with the Houston Fire Department's report on the investigation of that fire has finally arrived.

Without going into the technical aspects of the autopsy report, CHIEF Negotiator's death was ruled as accidental due to smoke inhalation.

NOW FOR THE REST OF THE STORY:

From the Arson Bureau's report:

"The fire originated at floor level approximately 4 feet west of the east wall adjacent to the south wall in the formal dining area. At this point the sheetrock on the south wall shows calcination along the south wall approximately 6 feet in length in the area below the southeast window. This suggests an area of intense burning and high heat.
The wood wall base trim at the area of origin was deeply charred by the fire. A wooden dining set of 4 wooden chairs and a wooden table were almost completely consumed by the fire. Small charred pieces of the table and chairs were all that remained.
The fire was very intense in the dining room area and spread to the adjacent rooms to the east, west and north. These rooms sustained high heat and fire damage from the fire spread. The fire consumed wooden doors separating the dining room from the kitchen and family room. Burn patterns were consistent with a fire moving from the dining room area into the adjacent rooms."

These next pics I took through the window shown by the arrow:

Continuing with the Arson Bureau's report:

"Investigators observed that the north side garage entry door was kicked open and that a partial shoe print was found on the door. This investigator was unable to determine if the door was forced by firefighters or was forced prior to the fire."[italics and bold mine]

------------------------- From the Arson Bureau's report:

-------------------------

"Captain ------ of L-36 told Investigator ------ that he found the deceased Herbert Paul Meadows lying in a fetal position, with his head against the west wall in the bathroom near the den. Firefighters dragged the victim to the driveway where he was pronounced dead by paramedics of Squad 40."

--------------------------

"Engineer ------- of L-36 reported that he observed two tripped electrical breakers when he shut off the electrical power."

-------------------------

Investigator ------- went to St. Lukes Emergency Room to interview --------(Mrs.) Meadows who is the wife of the deceased. --------(Mrs.) Meadows was transported by H.F.D. ambulance after the fire. -------(Mrs.) Meadows was treated for smoke inhalation and had been medicated by the hospital but she was able to relate details of the fire.
(Mrs.) Meadows told investigators that she and her husband Herbert watched a late night T.V. show and then she had went to bed while her husband Herbert had went into the den to work on the computer.
Mrs. Meadows stated that she was in bed about 10 minutes as was not asleep when she heard a 'noise or crash'. Mrs. Meadows said the sound 'was like something going through a window'. These sounds came from the other side of the house where her husband was working. This sound was followed by loud screams. (sic)'Was like something going through a window!' She described the sounds made by her husband as 'like I never heard him scream in my life!'
-----(Mrs.) Meadows reported she ran down the hall toward the dining area and was stopped by the thick black smoke in the kitchen area. ----- (Mrs. Meadows) yelled at her husband and asked him if (sic) see needed to call '911'! (Mrs. Meadows) stated that she heard a 'muffled' 'yes!' and then lost contact with Herbert Meadows. (Mrs. Meadows) told investigator that she smelled a 'bar-b-que' type odor like 'when you light a fire with charcoal lighter fluid'. (Mrs. Meadows) attempted to call for help on a phone in the house but she reported the phone was dead. (sic) Meadows went outside in the front yard and yelled for help.

------------------

From notes of the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office:

"Arson inv. reveals no..(crossed out).. flammable fluids"
"The investigators.. (crossed out).. smelled gas at scene"
"Not sure if they are ruling arson or not"

[My back yard]

A public forum is no place to conduct a private investigation.

---

But, it is the best place for a gathering of momentum to make sure that an under-funded, half-assed, possibly corrupt, big city government bureaucracy is not going to sweep it under the rug.

[My back yard]

Ooops, didn't mean to use the a-word.

[COB1]

In the first place, none of us are getting paid to do this.
We all have jobs just like you do, and we sacrifice our time to try to help.
I am on the ground here in Houston; I can do more with the information than you could hope to do in Minnesota.
We have a disagreement over what can be posted and what can't, but if the investigators, not you, told me that it couldn't be posted, I wouldn't have posted it.

I did not post that autopsy on the forum.
I put a link to my Website with the warning to the Meadows' family that it would be painful.
I only did this after I checked with one member of the family to see if it would be okay.

This cannot be an ego trip.
We are involved in some serious business, and we have to find a resolution, or Herb will have died in vain because no one knows why or how he died.
I firmly believe that.

My only interest in this business is to find out what happened, and I won't rest until I do.
At the same time I feel an obligation to all the members of this forum to inform them of everything possible concerning his death.
They loved him as much as I did.

[MistyCA]

There was a lot of information on the Chief threads but someone decided to have most of them deleted. That is why I was trying to give some information here once again. But I will not be treated in the manner Cob has chosen. All I meant to do here was point out the things that are known as much as possible.

[MistyCA]

I agree with you

[MistyCA]

LOL....no problem with that here! :)

[philman_36]

Think of it this way.....I gather information from sources who do not want to be identified on a public forum. I go tell Cob what I was told and who told me. Cob posts it. I lose my source. It's that simple.
BTW...how can simply posting publically the information you received cost you your source if the source isn't identified? I understand that the identity of your source is what you desire to retain as confidential, but the information you've received from the source? Why keep it to yourself? Isn't that the whole purpose of conducting the investigation, to get answers?
IMO the information you've received could and should be shared and made public. If you air the information publically then you don't have to worry about your source being compromised. You're the one in control of the dissemination of that information. Besides, if you're that worried about maintaining your source's identity why would you tell anyone that information to start with?
If you've already given out your source's identity to others then what is your complaint? Further exposure of their identity, or just public exposure and cross reference showing that they didn't document everything of concern in the investigation?
It seems strange how your thinking works.

[MistyCA]

Yes, but you didn't get nearly as much information as I did. That's just the fact. I know that Chief was a well loved person. I read his posts after the fact. I wish I had known him because he was very inspirational and important to so many causes on FreeRepublic. Do you recall how many times I asked you to do certain things on the ground? Even in the last call to you I stressed the fact that there were a lot of things that could be done in Houston. But because of your desire to post everything you knew (because you have a deep regard for the need of some FReepers to know everything, which I understand), we decided that we couldn't maintain the integrity of private information. This whole thing really puts me in a bind because I would like nothing better then to be able to share everything I know. But darn it all Cob....I can't do that. I would have no personal or professional integrity if I did that. So you have put me in a position of having no choice but to just back out of this thing. And you know me well enough to know that you can't go yelling at me without consequence of some sort! I'm not one of your lady friends who is going to back down and wimper back into some corner. There were things that I learned that needed to be verified so that they could be made public. What we didn't need was to upset the investigators by trying to pull a Freep on them when what we really wanted was information. I told you then and I will tell you again, there isn't an investigator worth their salt who is going to back down on releasing information just because you stand on some street corner and yell at them! I am tired of the bickering which has not changed since earlier posts. I am glad, btw, that you had the autopsy report cleared by someone in the family before it was posted. That is what I would have done, but the last I talked to you, you were not going to pursue this and the threads were all pulled. There was no reason to bring this all back to the forum, imo, unless we could come up with some conclusive answers. But that's just my opinion.

[MistyCA]

Oh boy....that is what I was trying to do....post things I knew without telling who said it. And where did that get me? Accused of grandstanding, etc, etc, etc. You see, there is a lot of stuff that could be verified if only people would use the initiative to do it. I have been stating what I believe to be true because of the sources who gave it to me. That's the issue. COB wants to know WHO TOLD YOU THAT! He calls it my ego trip. LOL.

[philman_36]

All I meant to do here was point out the things that are known as much as possible.

Well why don't you make a composite post of all of the information that you're willing to share publically and be done with it instead of dribbling the information through a funnel and sieve? You appear to have the skill to do so. Stretching this thing out for months on end is simply ridiculous!
You shouldn't have to give your source's identity, but their information could lead to someone noting something of import.

[COB1]

Do you realize that most of the leads which I provided to the investigators to get this investigation kicked off have not even been checked out?

[MistyCA]

Yes. And to the best of my ability I checked those things out. And I prodded certain people and made sure other things were followed up by the appropriate people.

[COB1]

They still haven't been checked out.

That's all for me.
Bedtime.
Goodnight, all.

[philman_36]

You see, there is a lot of stuff that could be verified if only people would use the initiative to do it.
Okay, could you publically, in a concise manner, state what it is that needs to be verified.
I seriously doubt that it is a lack of initiative, but rather a lack of direction. I feel that there are probably many who would like to do something. I also feel as if all of this "back room conversing" has made many feel that the work is already being done. Many probably don't want to intrude or they may feel that if they're uninvited their help is not needed. To find now that there are still things that need to be accomplished is rather disheartening

[MistyCA]

You are right although I am not the one who dragged this thing out. I agree that a composite of information would be good and we did that on some of the previous threads. Some of the information was hard to come by. Some I had to wait to get permission to post and it wasn't always easy to get that permission. But everything was shared with the team we had at the time. Most of the team was very serious and very honorable and diligent about this effort. To say we worked very hard is an understatement.

[philman_36]

publically...it's time for bed for me too. publicly

[MistyCA]

LMAO....I am way too tired! :)

[Huggy]

Deja vue all over again. Except this time, I think an explosion from corn dust has been all but virtually ruled out.

One thing that I admire most about FReepers is their tenacity and passion, the level of which is astounding. I'm beginning to think that a "previous incarnation" of Freepers built the pyramids.

I have searched for something of value that I could post. The only thing I could come up with is to wish that everyone who decides to comment on this issue... please remember the reason for this thread BEFORE pressing the "post" button.

As for offering any investigative insight, aside from commenting on the deficient (or unposted) forensic data analysis, I would focus my attention to the critical time period between CN's last post and the 911 call. While a .17 BAC is high, it is also relative. I don't think CN was snoozing during his last moments on earth.

"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen."
- Quotations of Courage & Vision

All my best to COB1, MistCA, etc, etc....

[MistyCA]

Cob, that might just be because they were meritless. You have about as much sense about investigating as a wet rag. I will leave you to your little game here. I attempted to help but can see time has not made you any wiser. I consider what you are doing now, and what you did before, destructive to the efforts. In short....go fly a kite.

[MistyCA]

Thanks, Huggy. This is, as you well know....no place to conduct an investigation :) Hope you are doing well....my regards to Mrs. Huggy! :)