Posted on 09/23/2001 3:34:26 PM PDT by Iowegian
Pope John Paul has issued a dramatic appeal that the world not be allowed to slide into war following attacks on the United States and urged against a deepening of religious divisions.
"With all my heart I beg God to keep the world in peace," the Pope said on Sunday at the end of a mass for some 50,000 people on the first full day of his visit to Kazakhstan, a Central Asian republic which may be caught up in an eventual regional crisis.
"We must not let what happened lead to a deepening of divisions. Religion must never be used as a reason for conflict," he said, referring to tensions with some parts of the Islamic world following the attacks in New York and Washington.(snip)
NEGOTIATIONS, NOT WAR
On arrival in Kazakhstan on Saturday, Pope John Paul said all controversies between nations must be resolved by negotiations and dialogue, not force of arms.
The Pope, who aides say is losing sleep over the possibility of war, celebrated a mass that began with a stiff wind blowing in from Siberia over the flat steppes and ended in sunshine.
Despite my own struggles with Catholicism (being a recovering Catholic convert myself) and my own arguments with Catholics on FR in the past, I was only going to say it's too bad contemporary Catholicism, like almost all other contemporary religion (as showcased on today's Oprah-fest at Yankee Stadium) has degenerated into liberal new age mush. I was going to fondly recall the earlier popes rather than condemning them for "intolerance" like contemporary liberals do. I wasn't going to say anything nasty or disprespectful about JPII or Catholicism. I hope I will still be able to abide by that. But, "Conservative till I die," the nasty, uncalled-for ethnic slur you have just uttered against a segment of your fellow countrymen and (supposedly) co-religionists is shameful and unworthy of this forum. I hope you are proud of yourself.
Okay. The rural Protestant American heartland is made up of "Cletuses" who live in trailer parks and handle snakes. That's exactly what the liberals say. And what is constantly, continually portrayed as the foe of liberalism per excellence? Your sophisticated, urban, hyper-intellecutal, "nativist" bashing Catholic Church. The only thing holding back the triumph of G-dless Communism. The very prop of Western Civilization itself. The good old, hyper-rightwing Catholic Church. But look at you. Snarling at rural Americans and their sincerely-held religious beliefs, into which they were born just as you were into yours, like some Gore Vidal. Why don't you tell us about the e-vil ADL now and how the Catholic Church is the Bible-Belt's ally against the dreat bid bad liberal Jews?
Let's look at your "sophisticated, liberal, tolerant" church. For it seems in 2000 years you have had your own "Cletuses" and "snake-handlers" (I can think of the cult of a sain in Italy), and trailer-park dwellers. What about all those illiterate Belgian peasants in the Middle Ages? Why was their simplicity so superior to someone else just because the latter happened to be born into the rural Anglo-American folk-Protestant tradition of the American heartland??? I have never been able to figure out just how the illiterate peasants and the sophisticated leftist Ph.D.'s share the same religion. I know that Catholicism in America is almost exclusively the sophisticated, urban brand. Perhaps I should have moved to Belgium before converting???
But even in America there are a few exceptions. Yes, you even have a "Cletus" or two in the American church today, many of whom I respect, however much I disagree with them. Gary Matatics is one example. And btw, Mr. Metatics not only rejects evolution in the best "Cletus" tradition, but even Copernicanism as well. How he has managed to find a home in the sophisticated, intellectual, urban American church you represent I do not know. And there are other Catholics who reject Copernicanism, and some of them are quite intellectual. It's just that for whatever reason they have decided to use their intellect against more formidable enemies than the pitiful, defenseless "redneck" whipping boy you have just so cowardly invoked.
But there are other "Cletuses" in the contemporary American church of whom I am not so fond. Your fine, tolerant, too-sophisticated-to-ever-be-guilty-of-bumpkinism American Catholic Church still has people like Fr. Nicholas Gruner (okay, he's Canadian!) who once stated on his radio show, "It's a good thing most Jews are so liberal, because if they actually did as the Talmud commands them they'd murder us all in our beds." And you have Feeneyites, who I would actually respect were it not for little articles like "The Chosen People is Now the Accursed Race," and you have plenty of Catholic "Cletuses" out there who insist that every evil, real or imagined, is the result of a "satanic" (h'v"ch!) Jewish-Masonic conspiracy! This in spite of the fact that Orthodox Judaism's compatibility with Freemasonry is imaginary (no one ever offers any evidence that Jews and Masons are colluding--they just state it). Some of your "sophisticated" non-redneck fellow-Catholics are posting things claiming to be the founding document of Freemasonry by Herod (!!!). And you have Superior Sophisticated Catholics who even blaspheme their Creator, the Jewish G-d, which by Noachide law is actually a capital offense!
In the meantime, the paleoconservatives continue to worship this sophisticated, liberal, urban church as the only true hope of all "western men." There is even an article on a Feeneyite site that stresses Roman Catholicism's affinity with the CONFEDERACY (and as a matter of fact, the Confederacy was often considered a backward, anachronistic Vatican creation to destroy the American Republic by Unionists). For all your nasty remarks about "Cletus" and his "trailer park," I hope you will despair in the knowledge that the paleoconservative neo-Confederate movement to this day is extremely pro-Catholic, looking upon that Church as more suited to the European, genteel, paternalistic culture of the ante-Bellum South than the "Teutonic Puritanism" of the North. And you know what? It matters not how many bigoted urban Catholics take potshots at America's "xenophobic" rural bumpkins (which is the height of hypocrisy considering the ancestors of persecuted, cosmopolitan, sophisticated Catholics were xenophobic rural bumpkins in Lithuania who vented their bigotry and hate on the Jews), the paleos and the neo-Confederates will cover their eyes and ears and pretend it never happened. The Catholic Church is the Church of White Western European Man and his vaunted "Western Civilization," so all the atheists in clerical collars running around today and all the leftist urban Irish labor leaders won't make a dent on them.
I hope the people you have so unfairly insulted in the best liberal fashion will remember this whenever National Review or First Things present the Catholic Church as the great Friend and Ally of the Beleaguered Redneck. As someone who spent six years in the belly of the beast, I know what the liberal hierarchy really thinks of "rednecks," who make a convenient scapegoat for every crime in the history of chr*stianity, in spite of the fact that Fundamentalist Protestantism didn't even exist back then. (For some reason sophisticated Catholics want to deny Fundamentalist Protestantism any roots in chr*stian history until it comes to the pogroms and massacres; then suddenly all those people were Southern Baptists who arrived in the Middle Ages via a time machine.)
In the view of a lot of the slackjawed armchair Rambos on this thread, Jesus was apparently a good ol' boy who handles snakes on Sunday at the revival meetings and goes trolling for Mexicans, gays, and "Ay-rabs" like the best Buchanan supporters.
Now this is just disgusting. Pat Buchanan is not a "Cletus." He's one of your own "Aloysius's" and you know it. And neither was Father Coughlin a "Cletus," nor Dennis Fahey (Irish bishop who put his imprimata on a tract claiming the Communist revolution on 1917 was a Jewish takeover), nor Franco or Pinochet or Salazar (all of whom you expect American Fundamentalists to defend to their last breath, just as you have made the defense of Pius XII an article of conservative ideology). And there is a Falangist party in the US too, and I doubt very many of them are trailer park "Cletuses" in North Carolina. (BTW, is this what you conservative Catholics really think of Jesse Helms???) I suppose your Jew-hating Joe Sobran is somehow better? Elucidate please. In fact, most of the wackos on the Right are members of your sophisticated, intellectual church, Mister. And you want to play "oppressed urban immigrant" just like a third worlder? Go ahead. But I am not going to let you get away with it. Especially not when you expect Fundamentalist Protestants to get their heads bashed in in anti-abortion demonstrations only to be painted as bigots by the likes of you. (And since when was the Catholic Church pro-"gay?")
To all "Bible-believing chr*stians" out there: I hope you will one day open your minds to the possibility that your faith in the Nazarene (who was indeed the Abbie Hoffman of his day) is vain and based only on the false idea that the "new testament" is part of the Hebrew Bible. It is NOT. You assume it is because you have never known a Bible that didn't have a "new testament" in it. But what if the "holy qur'an" were translated into Jacobean English and stuck in the Bible after the "new testament?" If you had grown up with such a "bible," you would all be "Bible-believing moslems" now! For some reason Fundamentalist Protestants appear ready to consider anything and everything (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, m*rmonism, J-- Witnesses, British-Israelism . . . anything except that perhaps the Hebrew Bible was complete before the "new testament" was added (which is a strange prejudice for a people whose motto is "if it's new, it ain't true!"). I have relatives who keep the Jewish Shabbat and holidays, but they simply cannot fathom J*sus not being in the mix because that is the Bible they inherited! The fact that they inherited that Bible from churches and religions they reject as false never seems to make a dent on them. I wonder what they'd do if they knew the King James translators included the "apocrypha" in the King James Bible but that it was dropped by later publishers? Does this mean a mistake was made when part of the Holy King James Version was edited out? Or is it conceivable that the "new testament" is no more legitimate than was the "apocrypha?" I hope some of you will, during the moments you are trying to clear your minds of "man-made traditions" and getting back to "the original message" will be at least as prayerfully open to the first religion, the religion actually practiced by the people of the Bible, as you are to these bizarre new cults that keep springing up every day. Where does this block come from? Why is everything negotiable except the "new testament," especially when you are defined as a people by your dedication to the truth of Genesis--a dedication not shared by most of your Catholic "allies."
Let me close with a brief treatment of the confusion surrounding exactly what the messiah is supposed to do. Most of you believe the "old testament" predicted a two part messianic advent (a first advent to die on the cross and a second advent to inaugurate the messianic kingdom). You actually claim the messiah is to be accepted based on his fulfilling only "half" the messianic prophecies rather than all of them! I hate to break the news to you, but the chr*stian religion (the historical one which you reject, but from which you have inherited your devotion to J*sus) does not teach this. It teaches that all messianic prophecies--ever single one of them was fulfilled 2000 years ago. How can this be, you ask? When did the ingathering of Israel occur, or the messianic kingdom over all the nation? Why (according to your mentors), these prophecies were never meant to be interpreted literally. They are spiritual prophecies which have been fulfilled allegorically in the historical chr*stian (Catholic/Orthodox) church! You can close your eyes and pretend this isn't so, but it IS so. Your mixture of chr*stian and Jewish messianic beliefs (the latter being the "millenium") is regarded by your allies in the historical churches as a Judaeo-chr*stian syncretism, and they despise you for it. And you know? It IS a Judaeo-chr*stian syncretism. I ask you what 'Eliyyahu HaNavi' (zakhur latov) once asked Israel: "How long halt ye between two opinions? If the G-d of Genesis and of the Hebrew Bible ("old testament") be G-d, then follow Him, but if J*sus be "gxd" then follow him. But it's time this artificial, ahistorical, and wholly vain and futile syncretism were replaced with one of the other.
One more thing. Your "allies" attack you for not recognizing that J*sus was a "spiritual" (ie, allegorical) messiah and instead wanting a more Jewish "earthly" messiah. But what they never explain--not ever--is why if a "spiritual messiah" is so opposed to the idea of "gxd incarnate" (h'v"ch!) ruling the world from Jerusalem, why it was so comfortable with such decidedly non-spiritual messiahs as Drtad, Constantine, Justinian, Menelek, Charlemagne, Isabella, etc. ad nauseum??? For some reason the "spiritual messiah" propagandists never deal with this question. It seems the only "earthly king" they are opposed to is the J*sus they passed on to you in the first place!
Now--I am sorry if I have offended anyone in stating these things. But "Conservative till I die" . . . don't you ever . . . and I do mean EVER . . . post such a mean-spirited, uncalled for, and liberal ethnic slur against the American Heartland again! I'm sorry its culture does not have the same merit in your "sophisticated" eyes as the moslem terrorists.
I of course don't favor declaring was upon Vatican City but they have joined with th enemy and if I was being consistent they would have to be added to that list.
Bite me you scumbag.
Jesus' mission was not an earthly one. Ours is. We must protect our country and our selves. We are fighting terrorism in order to restore peace. I suspect we can count on the help of God to the extent that we stick to our mission.
Well said, Sink. I applaud you. Our sermon this morning was much the same as what you say here.
There have never been any shysters in the Catholic Church. No selling of indulgences. No stipends for masses. No hawking of holy Fatima water. This is because the Catholic Church is a liberal, sophiticated, urban church of European intellectuals. Except at election time when we want the "fundies" to vote for our politicians, right?
And as to your second Cletus remark (hunting down "Messcans" that your co-religionist Pat Buchanan has inflamed them against) . . . no Catholic has ever been usophisticated enough kill Jews for "torturing the host," have they? Or was that those Southern Baptists in a time machine again, travelling throughout history to conveniently be at hand to blame for every atrocity attributed to your "sophisticated" church over 2000 years???
Your ethnic slurs on the American heartland are uncalled for. I demand you apologize and retract them or I will ask that you be banned. Your devisive rhetoric (and I wasn't going to say any of the stuff I have until I saw your crap) is only counterproductive.
And now that I've read victim soul's post, I'm all the more convinced he's pleading with the Islamics. It's clear he was in Asia now and was speaking directly to them, it is they who he wants to save from a disaster.
Your attack on ButConservativeTilIDie is supposed to make us feel better about YOU?
You're an absolute mess!
You are changing the question to get a different conclusion. Of course, it is always better to negotiate first,rather than attack another country unprovoked (especially if you will lose the war). But that's not my question.
Apology accepted, and I am glad to see that there are reasonable people on FR (sometimes I wonder). God bless you.
Sunday September 23, 04:57 PM
Pope in dramatic appeal to avert war
By Philip Pullella
ASTANA (Reuters) - Pope John Paul has issued a dramatic appeal that the world not be allowed to slide into war following attacks on the United States and urged against a deepening of religious divisions.
"With all my heart I beg God to keep the world in peace," the Pope said on Sunday at the end of a mass for some 50,000 people on the first full day of his visit to Kazakhstan, a Central Asian republic which may be caught up in an eventual regional crisis.
"We must not let what happened lead to a deepening of divisions. Religion must never be used as a reason for conflict," he said, referring to tensions with some parts of the Islamic world following the attacks in New York and Washington.
The Pope's appeal, read in a strong voice in English, was all the more powerful for being issued in a region that may be caught up in military activity if Washington strikes.
The 81-year-old Pontiff's plea came as the United States continued to build up forces within striking distance of Afghanistan, base of militant Osama bin Laden whom Washington says is a prime suspect over the September 11 attacks.
"I wish to make an earnest call to everyone, Christians and the followers of other religions, that we work together to build a world without violence, a world that loves life, and grows in justice and solidarity," he said.
Hours after the Pope made his appeal, President Nursultan Nazarbayev, told the Pope his country was ready to join a coalition of states to fight terrorism.
"Kazakhstan has resolutely spoken out against terrorism and is ready, in a coalition of other states, to fight it jointly because we believe that a single state, however big, cannot defeat terrorism alone," he told the Pope.
In his appeal the Pope held up Kazakhstan, which is majority Muslim and has a tiny Catholic community, as an example of harmony between people of different religions.
"From this place, I invite both Christians and Muslims to raise an intense prayer to the One, Almighty God whose children we all are, that the supreme good of peace may reign in the world. May people everywhere, strengthened by divine wisdom, work for a civilisation of love, in which there is no room for hatred, discrimination or violence," he said.
He said the mass and read his appeal from an altar platform shaped like a traditional Kazakh yurt, or felt tent.
NEGOTIATIONS, NOT WAR
On arrival in Kazakhstan on Saturday, Pope John Paul said all controversies between nations must be resolved by negotiations and dialogue, not force of arms.
The Pope, who aides say is losing sleep over the possibility of war, celebrated a mass that began with a stiff wind blowing in from Siberia over the flat steppes and ended in sunshine.
In his sermon at the mass, which was surrounded by tight security with police checking everyone with metal detectors, the Pope paid tribute to those who suffered during the Soviet era.
During Stalinist times more than two million people, mainly Germans, Poles and Ukrainians, were deported to Kazakhstan.
The country was also home to 16 of the many camps in the Gulag Archipelago for political dissidents and people, including many Catholics, who were considered "unreliable".
One was Father Wladislaw Bukowinski, a Polish priest who was in labour camps and prisons for a total of 15 years and was freed in 1961 after Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev released millions from Stalinist prisons and concentration camps.
At the mass the Pope received a painting of Bukowinski, who preferred to live out his remaining years helping Catholics in Kazakhstan rather than return to Poland. He died in 1974.
I would say....Russian is Coming to Christ again. After all before the revolution, it was the largest Christian Country in the world.... perhaps it will be again. THANK GOD!
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