FLT-bird:
"Alexander Stephens, often quoted for his Cornerstone Speech is rarely quoted for this: 'If centralism is ultimately to prevail; if our entire system of free Institutions as established by our common ancestors is to be subverted, and an Empire is to be established in their stead; if that is to be the last scene of the great tragic drama now being enacted: then, be assured, that we of the South will be acquitted, not only in our own consciences, but in the judgment of mankind, of all responsibility for so terrible a catastrophe, and from all guilt of so great a crime against humanity.' --Alexander Stephens "
Well, first of all the word "empire" can mean almost anything.
We might remember, people said of the Holy Roman Empire that it was neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire.
President Washington himself called the United States "our empire" in the 1790s, at which time by no definition of the word "empire" could that be anything more than a figure of speech.
Does the word "empire" imply conquered lands?
Much or all of the United States was conquered, if not by us then by, for example, the Spanish who were conquered by the French who sold us Louisiana territory.
Does "empire" imply dictatorship?
The British Empire was arguably as democratic as any nation on earth at the time, at least for the Brits themselves.
Second, I can find the Stephens' quote, but not the date or context of it -- was it pre-war, during the war, or post-war?
But I notice that after the war Stephens was elected to the US Senate and House of Representatives (5 times) before being elected Georgia's governor, in which post he died, naturally, in 1883.
So I take it that as an elected US official, Stephens did not feel like, say, a Tribune of the Roman Empire, right?
FLT-bird quoting:
"It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all.
Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for.
It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a MORE CENTRALIZED FORM OF GOVERNMENT AND TO DEPRIVE US OF OUR RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES.”-- Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864"
Seems to me that quotes by Cleburne have been posted & challenged before.
Cleburne was actually a very attractive Confederate general, having supported offering slaves freedom in exchange for military service.
Because of that he is fantasized to have said a lot of stuff I'm not sure if he ever did.
Does anyone remember checking this out in the past? ![]()
FLT-bird: "Alexander Stephens, often quoted for his Cornerstone Speech is rarely quoted for this: Probably because that quote, and all the other quotes except Cleburne's, were made post-rebellion during the height of rebel revisionism on the part of the southern leadership.
Well, first of all the word "empire" can mean almost anything. We might remember, people said of the Holy Roman Empire that it was neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire. President Washington himself called the United States "our empire" in the 1790s, at which time by no definition of the word "empire" could that be anything more than a figure of speech. Does the word "empire" imply conquered lands? Much or all of the United States was conquered, if not by us then by, for example, the Spanish who were conquered by the French who sold us Louisiana territory. Does "empire" imply dictatorship? The British Empire was arguably as democratic as any nation on earth at the time, at least for the Brits themselves. Second, I can find the Stephens' quote, but not the date or context of it -- was it pre-war, during the war, or post-war? But I notice that after the war Stephens was elected to the US Senate and House of Representatives (5 times) before being elected Georgia's governor, in which post he died, naturally, in 1883. So I take it that as an elected US official, Stephens did not feel like, say, a Tribune of the Roman Empire, right?Irrelevant babbling.Seems to me that quotes by Cleburne have been posted & challenged before. Cleburne was actually a very attractive Confederate general, having supported offering slaves freedom in exchange for military service. Because of that he is fantasized to have said a lot of stuff I'm not sure if he ever did. Does anyone remember checking this out in the past? LOL! Feel free to check it as much as you like. It is a widely cited quote. Cleburne was hardly alone among Confederate generals in wanting to offer slaves emancipation in exchange for military service.
[BroJoeK]: Seems to me that quotes by Cleburne have been posted & challenged before.
That particular quote of Cleburne is in my copy of the Official Records, Series I, Vol LII, Part II on Page 592.
Here is some history of what happened to the letter and how one copy of it was not destroyed and made its way into the Official Records: [Major General Patrick Cleburne and the Proposal to Arm Slaves.]
Attempts were made by other Confederate generals to get a copy of the letter during the war. Here is one in the Official Records:
Hdqrs. Hindman's Corps, Army of Tennessee,
Dalton, Ga., January 9, 1864. Maj. Gen. W. H. T. Walker.
Comdg. Div. Hardee's Corps, Army of Tennessee:
General : I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your note of this date,* and to decline complying with your request.
Whenever my proper superiors see fit to propound any interrogatories to me touching matters as to which they are entitled to inquire, it will be my duty to answer directly, and I shall do so. I have no opinions to conceal and will evade no responsibility that belongs to me. But I do not choose to admit any inquisitorial rights in you.
Permit me also to say that, according to my understanding, the course you propose to take conflicts with a distinct agreement of privacy among the officers consulted by General Cleburne, which agreement none of them can waive without the consent of all.
I am, general, with high respect, your obedient servant,
T. C. HINDMAN,
Major-General.
And here from the Official Records, Series I, Vol. LII, Part II, page 592 is the tail end of Major General Cleburne's January 2, 1864 letter (my bold below):
592 SW. VA., KY., TENN., MISS., ALA., W. FLA., & N. GA. [Chap. LXIV.] ... excitement and some disaffection from our cause. Excitement is far preferable to the apathy which now exists, and disaffection will not be among the fighting men. It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.
We have now briefly proposed a plan which we believe will save our country.
It may be imperfect, but in all human probability it would give us our independence. No objection ought to outweigh it which is not weightier than independence. If it is worthy of being put in practice it ought to be mooted quickly before the people, and urged earnestly by every man who believes in its efficacy. Negroes will require much training; training will require time, and there is danger that this concession to common sense may come too late.
P. R. Cleburne, major-general, commanding division; D. C. Govan, brigadier- general; John E. Murray, colonel Fifth Arkansas; G. P. Baucum, colonel Eighth Arkansas; Peter Snyder, lieutenant-colonel, commanding Sixth and Seventh Arkansas; E. Warfield, lieutenant-colonel, Second Arkansas; M. P. Lowrey, brigadier-general; A. B. Hardcastle, colonel Thirty-second and Forty-fifth Mississippi; F. A. Ashford, major Sixteenth Alabama; John W. Colquitt, colonel First Arkansas; Eich. J. Person, major Third and Fifth Confederate; G. S. Deakins, major Thirty-fifth and Eighth Tennessee; J. H. Collett, captain, commanding Seventh Texas; J. H. Kelly, brigadier-general, commanding Cavalry Division.
FLT-bird, you are doing an excellent job with your replies on this thread.