[Yosemitest]

Well ... I obviously struck a nerve.

Where to start with your response ... is the question.
Well, I've got noting else to do, tonight.

"That is a very harsh response.
And, quite frankly, I do not believe it is a Spirit-led response.
Nor are your counter-arguments Biblical."

Now that's funny.

"So you will have to pardon me if my response is also a bit harsh.
It is not meant to imply that
I do not believe you are a real believer,
but it is a warranted and necessary response to your error."

My tone being in question, let's take a read of Jesus's FIRST sermon.

" And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee:
and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up:
and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias.
And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;
he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
to preach deliverance to the captives,
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty them that are bruised,
to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.
And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

And he began to say unto them,
This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.
And they said,
Is not this Joseph’s son?
And he said unto them,
Ye will surely say unto me this proverb,
Physician, heal thyself:
whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum,
do also here in thy country.
And he said,
Verily I say unto you,
No prophet is accepted in his own country.
But I tell you of a truth,
many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias,
when the heaven was shut up three years and six months,
when great famine was throughout all the land;
but unto none of them was Elias sent,
save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon,
unto a woman that was a widow.
And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet;
and none of them was cleansed,
saving Naaman the Syrian.


And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
and rose up,
and THRUST HIM OUT of the city,
and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built,
THAT THEY MIGHT CAST HIM DOWN HEADLONG.
But HE passing through the midst of them
WENT HIS WAY,"

Have you really studied the way Jesus taught in his FIRST sermon ?

He made the people jealous in his first lesson,
and the people threw him out,
and were ready to KILL HIM !

The truth MUST be faced, OPENLY, and BLUNTLY !
Now let's continue with your comment.

"I get the impression
you do not accept the CLEAR Biblical message
that there are people who were formerly homosexual
who have been SAVED
by the transforming power of the Gospel."

You are correct.

"When I have twice pointed out that Paul said
that some of the Corinthian believers had been homosexuals before coming to Christ,
you seem to be claiming a Christian must not speak to or interact with them.
How were those homosexuals brought to Christ ?
How was the wicked, incestuous congregant brought to repentance ?"

As I scan back on your comments, I only find 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 and Philippians 3:2 as your references.
The words your referenced MIGHT BE fornicator, and dog.
And I'll even include the word incestuous that you've used in your comments.

fornication
noun for·ni·ca·tion \ ˌfȯr-nə-ˈkā-shən \
Legal Definition of fornication :
consensual sexual intercourse between a man and especially single woman who are not married to each other;
also : the crime of engaging in fornication — compare adultery
NOTE: Where still considered a crime, fornication is classified as a misdemeanor.

Origin and Etymology of fornication
Late Latin fornicatio, from fornicare to have intercourse with prostitutes,
from Latin fornic-, fornix arch, vault, brothel

I do NOT read anything indicating homosexual sex in THAT definition.

Now to the next word dog.
Since this is a Biblical analogy, I'll go with the Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete) on Philippians 3:2.

It is a needful caution he here gives: Beware of dogs, v. 2.
The prophet calls the false prophets dumb dogs (Isa. 56:10 ), to which the apostle here seems to refer. Dogs, for their malice against the faithful professors of the gospel of Christ, barking at them and biting them.
They cried up good works in opposition to the faith of Christ;
but Paul calls them evil workers:
they boasted themselves to be of the circumcision;
but he calls them the concision:
they rent and tore the church of Christ, and cut it to pieces;
or contended for an abolished rite,
a mere insignificant cutting of the flesh. III.
He describes true Christians,
who are indeed the circumcision, the spiritual circumcision,
the peculiar of people of God,
who are in covenant with him, as the Old-Testament Israelites were:
We are the circumcision, who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus,
and have no confidence in the flesh.
Here are three characters:

My comment on this sentence, is that I think "three" is a TYPO mistake, and they meant to type "Here are THEIR characters:"

Here are three characters:
—1. They worshipped in the spirit, in opposition to the carnal ordinances of the Old-Testament,
which consist in meats, and drinks, and divers washings, etc.
Christianity takes us off from these things,
and teaches us to be inward with God in all the duties of religious worship.
We must worship God in spirit, Jn. 4:24.
The work of religion is to no purpose any further than the heart is employed in it.
Whatsoever we do, we must do it heartily as unto the Lord;
and we must worship God in the strength and grace of the Divine Spirit,
which is so peculiar to the gospel state, which is the ministration of the spirit, 2 Co. 3:8.
They rejoice in Christ Jesus,
and not in the peculiar privileges of the Jewish church,
or what answers to them in the Christian church-mere outward enjoyments and performances.
They rejoice in their relation to Christ and interest in him.
God made it the duty of the Israelites to rejoice before him in the courts of his house;
but now that the substance has come the shadows are done away,
and we are to rejoice in Christ Jesus only.
They have no confidence in the flesh, in those carnal ordinances and outward performances.
We must be taken off from trusting in our own bottom,
that we may build only on Jesus Christ, the everlasting foundation.
Our confidence, as well as our joy, is proper to him.

I did NOT read anything indicating homosexual sex in THAT COMMENTARY about that analogy of "dogs".

Finally let's go to the word incestuous that you've used in your comments. about a third of more down from the start of your comment.
"Incestuous" definitions all refer back to its root word incest, so that's where I'll go.

Incest
The crime of sexual relations or marriage taking place between a male and female who are so closely linked by blood or affinity that such activity is prohibited by law.

Finally, I did not read any homosexuality in that definition.

The closest the Bible come to homosexual word for me is in the words that clearly state "a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman".

Have a good day, night, or whatever ...

[unlearner]

“He made the people jealous in his first lesson,
and the people threw him out,
and were ready to KILL HIM !
The truth MUST be faced, OPENLY, and BLUNTLY !”

Of course the Lord is THE STANDARD by which our conduct is measured. You are comparing yourself to Jesus and not discussing how you fall short but how much your behavior is like His? That is ludicrous.

The Lord was perfect. He needed no correction, instruction, or any improvement. And in spite of this He conducted Himself with meekness and humility.

And your argument is flawed in every way. There were people angered by Christ proclaiming the truth, and they wanted to kill Him. And you are claiming that because you imagine that you “struck a nerve” that this somehow proves you are like Jesus.

The whole world is full of offensive people. Does that make them like Jesus?

The world is even full of religious leaders with bold, confident claims about the Bible. Does this mean they are all like Jesus?

The fact that you could even assert such a ridiculous claim underscores how desperately you need correction, instruction, and soul-searching before God to fix what is terribly wrong in your thinking.

A whole book could be written just to address the egregious nature of this one statement of yours alone. But I will simply point out a few verses.

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Colossians 4:6
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

James 3:1-2
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

2 Timothy 2:24-25
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

1 John 1:8-9
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

“I do NOT read anything indicating homosexual sex in THAT definition [of fornication].”

The Bible is not subject to man-made definitions. Often the Bible provides its own context for the meaning of words. Fornication certainly includes those things, but is often used broadly of all sexual sin, including physical acts of adultery. Fornication generally refers to prohibited physical sexual acts. Fornication encompasses the entire gamut of sexual sins forbidden by God. These include those listed in Leviticus 18 which describes roughly 14 familial relations which can never be sanctified in marriage because they are incestuous, along with homosexual intercourse, and bestiality. It also includes a prohibition against the unclean sex act of heterosexual intercourse with a woman during her menstruation in verse 19. This is called “uncleanness” in the New Testament. Adultery is also listed in verse 20, and child sacrifice in 21.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

In some passages, such as this one, adultery and fornication are distinguished, and fornication is used in a more narrow sense. But regardless of the name assigned, anything of that nature falls under the category of “such like.” This avoids any claim of a loophole or technicality. For example, no one can claim sadomasochistic sexual relations to be normative. It is just one of many perversions that fall under the broad labels of lust and fornication. The most extreme sexual perversion is attempts of sexual relations between humans and angels. This perversion occurred in the days of Noah and the days of Sodom. Whether it would technically be called “fornication” is not relevant to the fact that it falls into the same category of grievous sexual sins. It does not need to be listed specifically.

With that being said, we have a specific example of fornication being used to describe the wicked conduct of homosexuals:

Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

As grievous as homosexuality is, failing to repent is an even greater sin:

Matthew 11:21-24
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Note that Christ Himself allowed for the possibility for the Sodomites to have repented. He even says they would have if He had given them the divine demonstration of signs He gave to Israel. Christ asserted that Sodom would not have ever been destroyed. Why? Because they would have repented, unlike Capernaum and similar cities where He did mighty miracles.

“And I’ll even include the word incestuous that you’ve used in your comments.”

You are the one who brought it up first. But apparently you were unaware that the reference you made earlier to Leviticus 18 is not only about homosexuals but also about those who engage in other perversions such as incest and uncleanness. I pointed out that there was a wicked man in the Corinthian church who had committed incest. This is a sin listed within the Leviticus 18 passage you cited about being “cut off from among their people.” Yet THAT MAN was brought to repentance and restoration:

1 Corinthians 5:1, 13b
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife... Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2 Corinthians 2:6-8
Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

“I did NOT read anything indicating homosexual sex in THAT COMMENTARY about that analogy of ‘dogs’. “

The Bible calls a male prostitute a “dog.”

Deuteronomy 23:18
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Technically a distinction could be made between homosexuals (sodomites or abusers of themselves with mankind) and male prostitutes (dogs), but it is not relevant because God judges such acts regardless of the reason a person does them (with the exception of someone being forced, who would not be guilty).

But the main issue at hand is that God requires all men everywhere to repent. Remaining in sin and not repenting is MORE WICKED than the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuals can be forgiven if they repent. Then they are no longer homosexuals, but former homosexuals. It no longer defines their identity. Same is true of other types of fornication, lust, uncleanness, murder, theft, and lies. These things will also keep a person from salvation when there is no repentance.

Further, there will be many people who go to the lake of fire to be tormented for their sins, who have never once committed a homosexual act or even had a thought of homosexual lust. God hates the pride and stubbornness of unrepentant sinners even more than the sin of homosexuality.

“As I scan back on your comments, I only find 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 and Philippians 3:2 as your references.”

You overlooked post #22.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

See where it says “abusers of themselves with mankind”? That’s referring to homosexuals.

See where it says “such were some of you”? That’s where the apostle indicates that some of the Corinthians had formerly been homosexuals, among other things. But they had repented and trusted Christ for salvation.

I said: “I get the impression you do not accept the CLEAR Biblical message that there are people who were formerly homosexual who have been SAVED by the transforming power of the Gospel.” To which you replied:

“You are correct.”

Well, if you will not hear the clear testimony of the word of God, there is nothing I can do for you. You can either remain in error, and stubbornly refuse correction, or you can learn. But be sure of this, God hates stubborn pride even more than the sexual perversions we have been discussing. And I’ve provided plenty of evidence to prove this.