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To: Ancesthntr

>>> Puhleeze - their is no “Devil,” if by that term you mean a renegade or rebellious angel that opposes G-d. The very idea that one of G-d’s creations could oppose him (let alone be successful for even a microsecond) is absurd beyond belief.

I think the primary questions for you are “Is the Bible true?”.... “Can it be taken literally?”. It sounds like your answer is no to both. That is where we differ.

I agree that Lucifer had to be totally wacked out bonkers when he conspired to overthrow God... but it gets better than that... Satan somehow managed to convince a third of the entire angelic host to join his cause.... so the question then becomes “What could possibly have happened in heaven to generate so much pride and anger to the point that all these angels actually thought they had a chance at succeeding?”

My guess is that it had something to do with the creation of mankind, and the role which was revealed to the angels in serving mankind. (They are much more powerful than we are)

All I think I can share with you on this, in answer to your reasoned question is... “Emotion OVERRIDES reason”.
We see it all of the time here on earth.
Look around you... the world is going nuts!
Even regarding this topic. It does not make any sense whatsoever to oppose new life... and yet they do... and for reasons which defy logic.

Yes... Pride and anger IS capable of making you a total loon.

Don’t lean on your own understanding. You should take a harder look at the reliability of God’s Word.


36 posted on 07/21/2017 9:29:42 AM PDT by Safrguns
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To: Safrguns

“I think the primary questions for you are “Is the Bible true?”.... “Can it be taken literally?”. It sounds like your answer is no to both. That is where we differ.”


You are utterly incorrect, I DO believe in the Bible.

Where we differ is on what each of us believes “the Bible” to be. My understanding of it, since I’m Jewish, is that it is much more limited than you believe it is. Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13:1 speaks directly to this:

“Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.”

That says, quite specifically, that the message of the Bible is limited to what is in the 5 Books of Moses. Everything else (the writings of the Prophets, the Psalms, Proverbs, etc.) is either a record of history that DOESN’T change the meaning, or are commentaries on the central message in the Bible, which is that “The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.” Deut. 6:4

What SHOULD be needless to say, but often is NEEDED to be explicitly stated, is that whatever may be added that is in any way contrary to what is in the 5 Books of Moses is, by default, invalid - and that would apply (for believing Jews, including me) to every part of the Christian Bible that disagrees with the 5 Books. That which is true there is but commentary (though commentary of a nature not accepted by believing Jews, because it is used to support new ideas which are contrary to those in the 5 Books of Moses). Of course, you are certainly entitled to disagree - God gave all humans free will.

Note, however, that God does NOT lie: Numbers 23:19 http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9951/jewish/Chapter-23.htm “God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?” Thus, what God said in Deuteronomy 13:1 CANNOT be untrue, nor can a positive and definitive statement like that be changed, even at God’s “whim,” without calling into question everything else in the Bible. Note, btw, that without the necesary foundation of the 5 Books of Moses, the entirety of the Christian Bible would be invalid - so for a believing Christian to dispute any part of the 5 Books would be for him or her to undercut their own beliefs.

As an aside, and support for my last statement in terms that you will better understand) Jesus (as quoted in your own Bible) explicitly agreed: Matthew 5:18 - “For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.” https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%205%3A18

Thus, what is in Deuteronomy 13:1 is, based on BOTH the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, VALID.

As I related in my first post, in the Hebrew Bible the angel ha satan (translated: “the satan” - a title and NOT a name) has a role ONLY as God’s servant - it can be no other way. It is utterly absurd, and frankly blasphemous, to believe (let alone teach others) that God could possibly be challenged by one of His creations. The Creator of the Heavens and the Earth could wipe out Satan and all of his/its supposed minions in the blink of an eye if He wished to do so - NOTHING is beyond His power. Thus, it is clear that the angel ha satan, evil and temptation are part of God’s plan for life on Earth. For everything there is a purpose http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16464/jewish/Chapter-3.htm


Ecclesiastes 3: 16-18

“16 And moreover, I saw under the sun, [in] the place of justice, there is wickedness, and [in] the place of righteousness, there is wickedness.

17 I said to myself, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every deed there.”

18 I said to myself, [that this is] because of the children of men, so that God should clarify for them, so that they may see that they are [like] beasts to themselves.”


Ha satan’s role is principally that of The Tempter - tempting people to sin (or deny God, which is essentially the same thing) as a test of their faith. Again, read the Book of Jonah - there is no new law in there, but lots to learn about faith and the nature of Satan. Read the Wikipedia entry describing the Jewish view of this angel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan#Judaism Here is a key statement in that entry: “Thus, Satan is personified as a character in three different places of the Tanakh, serving as an accuser (Zechariah 3:1–2), a seducer (1 Chronicles 21:1), or as a heavenly persecutor who is “among the sons of God” (Job 2:1). In any case, Satan is always subordinate to the power of God,[27] having a role in the divine plan.”

As an aside, and an aid to your understanding (at least of a different theological view), I recommend that you read Deuteronomy 13, in its entirety:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9977/jewish/Chapter-13.htm


37 posted on 07/21/2017 11:11:06 AM PDT by Ancesthntr ("The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." A. E. van Vogt)
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