[DoodleDawg]

Thanks to Franklin.

Looks like the South could have used a few more Franklins and fewer Mason and Slidell's. They could have avoided the whole shootin' match entirely, so to speak.

So you are articulating the claim that our legitimacy is solely based on the fact that the long time enemy of Briton could be charmed by Franklin into "recognizing" us? Funny, the Declaration states it is a natural right, and doesn't mention anything about it requiring the approval of other nations.

The funny thing is that you can issue all the declarations you want and claim to the heavens that you are a by-God independent nation, but unless the other countries of the world agree with you and recognize you as such you're nothing but a hunk of land with a piece of paper and delusions of sovereignty. Agree or disagree, it's just a fact of life.

Jeff Davis never had control of the war. Only Lincoln had control.

Now you're just being silly. Of course Davis had control of the war. He could have not ordered it to begin. And like the only choice you offer Lincoln, Davis could have surrendered at any time.

Stop trying to force your premises on the debate. By the standards established by our own founding, the South had their own country. The assertion that they did not is simply a narrative that the Union apologists insist on pushing to justify what they did.

The hostilities were initiated by rendezvousing a Naval flotilla off the coast of Charleston with secret orders. As I've pointed out numerous times, even Major Anderson realized this was a cause of War. Indeed, the orders to bombard the Fort were contingent on the arrival of another Ship to that flotilla of warships.

Secret orders...which Lincoln conveyed to Governor Pickens long before the ships arrived. Some secret. The Confederates knew that the purpose behind the ships was resupply and not reinforcement. They had the choice between war and status quo. They chose war.

The South simply wanted to keep more of it, and the North East simply wanted their 40% cut of all the South's production to keep streaming into their pockets.

Drifted into silly again, I see.

[rockrr]

Drifted into silly again, I see.

Like my pa used to say, "Someone put a bit too much saltpeter into their chowbucket." ;'}

[OIFVeteran]

Davis had to start the war or else cooler heads might have prevailed. Certainly VA and the others would not have joined the rebellion without the attack on Fort Sumter.

On a side not calling it the civil war is not correct. The official U.S. Army term is the war of rebellion which is much more accurate in my opinion.

[DiogenesLamp]

The funny thing is that you can issue all the declarations you want and claim to the heavens that you are a by-God independent nation, but unless the other countries of the world agree with you and recognize you as such you're nothing but a hunk of land with a piece of paper and delusions of sovereignty. Agree or disagree, it's just a fact of life.

Why don't you say what you really mean? If another nation has the power and the will to conquer you, you cannot be free. Isn't that the basis upon which Slavery exists?

Now you're just being silly. Of course Davis had control of the war. He could have not ordered it to begin. And like the only choice you offer Lincoln, Davis could have surrendered at any time.

There is that promotion of slavery again. I thought the Northern apologists were supposed to be against forced subjugation?

Secret orders...which Lincoln conveyed to Governor Pickens long before the ships arrived. Some secret. The Confederates knew that the purpose behind the ships was resupply and not reinforcement.

Something like 3,000 men to unload supplies? And no, Lincoln did not convey the secret orders he had given to his agents going to Pickens or Sumter. Those secret orders have never been revealed, but they authorized those men to take command of those ships, (among other things) and those secret orders were issued outside of the normal Naval chain of command.

It is clear Lincoln intended to trigger hostile action, because his agent sent to fort Pickens expected to be sunk. If he hadn't gotten a war started at Sumter, he was going to get one started at Pickens.

Yes, the confederates knew that Lincoln was claiming that was his intentions, but his claimed intentions did not match up with the actions that Confederate spies had already told them about. One does not outfit ships in secret if one is delivering supplies.

Drifted into silly again, I see.

You think that New York skimming off 40% of all the South's production is a silly claim? I guess you do need to see the map again. Remember 3/4ths of all that money piled on New York came from the South's exports.