Could Western Civilization Be Saved If Most Europeans Converted to Judaism?

[Alberta's Child]

The term "European culture" is meaningless in many ways. It certainly would have been meaningless through most of human history.

Heck -- even terms like "German culture" and "French culture" didn't mean anything until 150-200 years ago.

[Alberta's Child]

I was trying to be a little more delicate than that in Post #37. LOL.

[pinochet]

>>>The “enlightenment” is the source of almost all our woes in the world today

Then I guess you are not a fan of Baruch Spinoza.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Actually, many peoples in the ancient Near East knew the lunar calendar - long before Moses ever walked the earth. Moses grew up using a calendar in Egypt which fully understood the phases of the moon. Besides that, haven’t you ever thought that Psalm 81:3-6 indicated knowledge of a lunar calendar among Hebrews BEFORE Moses’ birth? You could still say it was given by God to the Hebrews in a sense, but God certainly didn’t wait until Moses to do it if Joseph was using it.

I didn't say the ancient Jews knew the lunar calendar when other ancient cultures did not (the East Asian calendar is certainly lunar). I said they knew the exact length of a lunar month. The other ancient cultures came close, but their observation and scientific research fell short. The Jews knew because it was received from G-d . . . specifically, the beginning of Exodus chapter 12 is the point at which G-d gave Moses the information about the Hebrew calendar and the precise length of a lunar month.

This is a very deep and profound issue because it requires the use of two primeval "first new moons" from which to calculate. If one begins with only the first real, historical new moon one cannot arrive at the answer. One must also use a "theoretical" first new moon that never actually happened--part of a "year" that never actually occurred but which is necessary to calculate correctly the precise moment of the molad or "birth" of the moon each lunar month. Dr. Jeffrey Satinover has an entire chapter devoted to this issue in his book Cracking the Bible Code.

Also, as I understand it, ancient Egypt used a solar calendar, which was in turn inherited by Greece and Rome and forms the basis of our current Roman solar calendar.

[CIB-173RDABN]

Europe will continue to exist. The question is will it be a Muslim Europe.

The west is in the process of being taken over by simply allowing millions of Muslims to move in (and then supporting them). When the time is right, they will simply begin killing the non-Muslims, and enslaving those that they do not kill.

[Jack Black]

But Islam is not part of Western Civilization. But Judaism is among the founding cultures of Western civilization. That is the major difference.I disagree, Islam is a part of Western Civilization, too. A big chunk of the history of Europe is the history of encountering, and often fighting off Islam. So to some extent it is the history or the encounter with "the other", but not everywhere. For instance, if you go to Spain you can find entire cities, like Corboba, with unique architecture and art that the encounter with Islam created.

I can't really think of any area where Jews have had this level of impact in Europe, creating entire cities and filling them with unique architecture.

Jews have lived in Greece since 300 BC

Yes, and like Islam they have always held themselves apart, so just as the European encounter with Islam is mostly an encounter with "otherness" sometimes far away, and sometimes among us, so too is most of Europe's history with the Jews.

When a state is majority Jewish, it is recognizably European.

Israel is recognizably Middle Eastern with a lot of European influence. It probably is closest to Beruit before Assad and the PLO destroyed it.

European culture is honored in a majority Jewish nation, than in European Muslim nations like Albania and Bosnia.

The Jewish religion doesn't require, or even desire, that everyone join it or die. The Jews have not set out to conquer vast swaths of the globe, and convert the people living their to their religion and language. The Arab Muslims have. So those are big differences, but I still think it's going too far to claim Judaism as a founding culture of Europe. They are a Middle Eastern tribe, not a European one. Christianity was largely constructed by Europeans to suit the European mind, not by Jews for us.

[Alberta's Child]

The original piece at the top of this thread also has an underlying assumption about the scientific/academic/cultural superiority of "Judaism" (in a cultural sense, not a religious one) that simply isn't supported by historical evidence.

I would suggest that "European culture" (to the extent that there is even a unified definition of it) came to dominate the world by almost any objective measure due to a combination of four underlying influences that haven't been replicated in any other one culture:

1. The linear worldview of Judaism -- i.e., the understanding of the world in the context of a physical reality with a beginning and an end, which replaced the cyclical worldview that marks aboriginal cultures that never change over time.

2. The egalitarianism of Christianity -- i.e., the notion that human salvation, and by extension human morals and civil law, should apply equally to all people regardless of race, religion and/or culture.

3. The Arabic numerical system ... Yes, the Islamic conquest of Europe left this lasting positive contribution to the world.

4. An Anglo-Saxon sense of order ... which explains why it wasn't Europeans in general who ended up dominating the world through as the colonial era progressed -- it was people of Germanic and British extraction.

[Romulus]

Western Civilization is the product of Christianity, which is the fulfillment of Old Testament Judaism. So yes, Judaism did lead to Western Civilization but only in a remote sense, with the absolutely necessary element of divine intervention through the Incarnation, life, and passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Modern Judaism has no power to save the West.

[pinochet]

>>>For Western Civilization to be saved Western countries must rediscover what made them great. The answer isn’t Judaism for any of them

I mentioned the ancient Greek and Roman cultures. But Judaism is also an important culture because Jews have lived in Greece since 300 BC, and made notable contributions to Greco-Roman civilization.

[kearnyirish2]

That’s a good point (in terms of the subsidies to the Orthodox); one problem with basing a country on that higher birthrate is the military exemption for the Orthodox. This created serious tensions when Israeli soldiers were sent to defend settlements of people who themselves didn’t serve.

[Jack Black]

I agree with your general thesis and points. The last one I modify a bit though:

4. An Anglo-Saxon sense of order ... which explains why it wasn't Europeans in general who ended up dominating the world through as the colonial era progressed -- it was people of Germanic and British extraction.

I would just say the English colonial system was a boon to the world, and the others (including German) less so.

Many of the greatest countries in the world, the places that immigrants all want to move to, are all part of the Anglosphere: Austrailia, New Zealand, Canada, the USA. Even in China, the British colony, Hong Kong, leads the rest of China in many respects. Nigeria, a British Colony in Africa, while still a disorderly place by European standards has managed to contain the largest city in Africa and continue to exist without falling into the utter anarchy and disorder of most the former French colonies in Africa.

Belize is much more civilized than Guatemala and El Salvador, it's neighbors. Even India is rising quickly now and the effects of the British colonial period show.

And of course the English language itself has surpassed all other languages in terms of universality.

[dfwgator]

I would just say the English colonial system was a boon to the world, and the others (including German) less so.

The worst were the Belgians, they basically committed genocide in their colonies.

[Alberta's Child]

Exactly. I’m scratching my head over a few things on this thread. One of them is that a lot of folks seem oblivious to the fact that Western civilization flourished after Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans and the Temple was destroyed.

[kearnyirish2]

Weren’t they already outnumbered, and wasn’t that the driving force behind ceding territory to the PA (to keep over 50% of the population Jewish)?

[Koracan]

.....The "Law of Moses" vs. the "Law of God", different thing.

..... says, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Since we are under grace, we are not under the law. The two are mutually exclusive....

...The Bible clearly states that we are not under the law. Romans 6:14.....

...he concludes that those who follow the law are "children of the bondwoman" , but those who follow faith are "free." ....

.....The 'Jews of Jesus’ day twisted the law, so much so that they considered themselves to be righteous, and yet they condemned Jesus as a law-breaker.....

....Jesus Christ has delivered us from the curse of the law....

Proof of success 2000 years later:
The top 10 list of productive countries (GDP/hours worked)

1. Luxembourg
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Switzerland
5. Netherlands
6. Germany
7. Denmark
8. United States
9. Ireland
10. Sweden
...16. United Kingdom

[Jack Black]

Exactly. I’m scratching my head over a few things on this thread. One of them is that a lot of folks seem oblivious to the fact that Western civilization flourished after Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans and the Temple was destroyed.

Western Civilization flourished before, during and after the sacking of the Temple in Jerusalem. Rome was early in her transformation from the Republic to the Imperial system, right. So Rome had 500 years of greatness behind her, and many hundreds of years of expansion ahead of her, including the founding of Constantinople by Emperor Constantine in 330 AD.

From the point of view of Roman history the events in Jerusalem in AD 70 don't seem to be a particular fulcrum.

So we are oblivious because it's not really that important an event.

[sasportas]

Could Western Civilization Be Saved If Most Europeans Converted to Judaism?

Not only western civilization, but the whole of civilization can only be “saved” - not by Judaism, but by THE Savior, Jesus Christ.

There is no salvation in Judaism period, their “house” is left unto them desolate, Matt. 23:38.

Judaism rejected their messiah and savior some two thousand years ago. Since they rejected the messiah and “savior,” the messiah and savior they are trying to get us to look to now for salvation (re: this article) will be what the New Testament calls the “antichrist.”

[fella]

Relaxing the tax burden on married child bearing couples would go a long ways toward reversing this trend.

[pinochet]

>>>>I would just say the English colonial system was a boon to the world, and the others (including German) less so.
Many of the greatest countries in the world, the places that immigrants all want to move to, are all part of the Anglosphere: Austrailia, New Zealand, Canada, the USA. Even in China, the British colony, Hong Kong, leads the rest of China in many respects. Nigeria, a British Colony in Africa, while still a disorderly place by European standards has managed to contain the largest city in Africa and continue to exist without falling into the utter anarchy and disorder of most the former French colonies in Africa. Belize is much more civilized than Guatemala and El Salvador, it’s neighbors

Good comparisons. I can add some more. The Anglo-Saxon civilizations of America and Canada, are more civilized than the Iberian civilizations of Mexico and Brazil.

You can also compare Jamaica and Haiti. Jamaica functions more efficiently than Haiti, because of its British colonial heritage. Also - Ireland and Portugal, both Catholic nations. But Ireland works more efficiently because of British colonization.

[Tours]

“Europe has always hated Jews and been enamored of muslims,”

Utter nonsense. It was Europeans who stopped the Muslim Hordes. If Europe was always so nasty to Jews why were they always moving there?