Posted on 09/19/2016 1:26:47 AM PDT by Enlightened1
In the fast food sector and others will probably come along they are beginning to use
kiosk ordering/pay thus cutting out another sector of the workforce. Some chains
such as Walmart have a section where you can scan/pay/bag and go.
I'm sure you remember this exchange from the Disney thread from last December:
Is there any validity to the claim of RICO? Can a "box" be drawn around both the company and the staffing agency to claim that they, together as a unit, conspired to violate American visa laws?
It is a violation.
RICO laws were amended in 1996 to include illegal immigration as part of the statute.
A case was brought against Mohawk (Carpet/flooring manufacture) where Mohawk fired many of their employees (and reduced pay for others) and then used a temp agency, staffed with illegals to fill the now vacant spots.
The former employees sued under RICO and won.
The box was drawn around Mohawk and the temp agency as a ‘corrupt organization’.
In the Disney case, the IT workers should only be brought over on H1-B’s if those positions/skills cannot be filled by people by citizens or people with legal status to be here. The fact that Disney had their own skilled employees train their unskilled replacement means that it was visa fraud on the part of the contracting firm to bring over the people on the H1-B’s. Disney is not insulated ... the box is drawn around Disney and the contracting firm.
The parallels with Mohawk are there. RICO applies and by statue, the former employees are due treble damages and other civil penalties.
Mo
Let's use the analogy of a jewelry thief and a jewelry store "fence." If the fence receives jewelry thought to be stolen, but the fence himself did not steal the jewelry, is the fence guilty if he then resells the jewelry even though he did not steal the jewelry himself? Or are the thief and the fence co-conspirators in the theft?
In the case of McDonald's and Disney, one would have to claim that they had no idea that the workers brought to them by the temp agency were not legally permitted to fill those positions because capable American workers were available to hold those jobs (and were already incumbent in them). Otherwise, they were both, together as a unit, co-conspirators in visa abuse.
-PJ
I did not realize that grey_whiskers bumped an old thread.
This thread pre-dates the post that I reference with the RICO theory.
Note to self... read the thread dates, not just the posting dates.
-PJ
Yah, sorry about that.
I saw the topic on Gab late last night, and then dutifully did a title search on FR to make sure I wasn’t double-posting.
(Shoots self in foot, reloads).
Too bad I didn’t check the article date, too. Normally when I thread-necro, it’s because I *meant* to...
You proved nothing, only made an accusation. Now prove it or shut up.
I rarely eat fast food, but if I'm out shopping and it's lunch time I confess I love to partake of a Burger King Whopper Junior and a small chocolate shake with whipped cream. Wunderbar!
Leni
Microsoft (and hell, all of Silicon Valley) are the biggest boosters of H1-B visas.
Profit margins in the software industry are around 50%-60%. Conventional consumer goods, like Coca-Cola, may be 10%; bricks-and mortar groceries are 1%.
They don't need H1-Bs to make a profit.
Name an overseas software company that is eating Silicon Valley's lunch, by using foreign labor, to which Silicon Valley had to respond, by lowering their labor costs. *crickets*.
And software is among the LEAST regulated industries there is; compared to (say) insurance, or health care, or construction.
Read Microsoft's EULA some time and note that the boilerplate language is that the limit for damages, even if Microsoft new about the potential flaws in the product, is $5 / seat. Dirt cheap, even if tripled for class action.
And the threat to move software engineering to India is laughable, as India's culture of bribery, to say nothing of the ineffectual electric infrastructure, would never support the server farms necessary.
That offshoring of IT threat can never happen. Nobody wants to move the third world to work. The only way H-1b works is to entice the high IQ workers that live in shit hole places to come to the USA and accept indentured servitude. Nobody is going to go to a crap hole to work and accept indentured servitude. Besides the USA is the only country that has an H-1b type visa and f—ks their citizen workers up the a— so badly. No other country treats is citizenry so badly. None.
I direct your attention to this article as proof of what I am saying.
I didn't mean to imply that regulations was the entire reason for the rise in H-1B visas, just that it plays a huge role. Unions are another factor in play as well.
The reason is that foreign workers are not protected under the NLRB because they are not citizens. In addition, foreign workers cannot be unionized either. In addition they do not have to pay for social security, unemployment, and my guess is they do not have to pay for their healthcare wither. What a savings. Is it a wonder why companies want them? The bigger wonder is why more have not taken advantage of them. Perhaps you think I was defending the H-1B visa program, but nothing could be further from the truth.
While I would have had no objection to you saying I was incorrect or even inconclusive, I resent the fact of you calling me a liar. I have never made any of my communications with you a personal attack. You say you are a Christian conservative yet you employ the tactics of an agnostic liberal. That is get personal with the person you disagree with by attacking them, calling them names, and impugning their character.
Perhaps you can see my response to him. At least you didn't have the audacity to call me a liar.
Just for the record, I am very much against H-1B visas, but the sad fact is that economics are the driving force behind their popularity. A lot of that economic burden is caused by onerous regulations. I didn't say that is was the total reason, or at least I didn't mean to imply that, but it does play a huge role.
There are other reasons beyond the hesitation to move operations offshore. Like the risk of them learning secrets of your manufacturing processes that may make your product unique, unstable governments or environments, etc.
Reduced wages are only a part of the equation as well. Foreign workers are not protected under the NLRB. Employers do not have to pay social security, medicare or unemployment payments for them, and they cannot unionize either. They most likely do not have to provide them with health insurance and they certainly do not have to figure in any retirement costs. So it's no wonder why H-1B visas are so popular, and why companies are gravitating to them.
You are correct, America is an attractive place to live and is part of the reason for American exceptionalism.
Not exactly...on this topic, as on one or two others, say, illegal immigration, if a poster on FR quacks like a liberal on standard talking points, Imma launch nukes first and ask questions later.
That being said, your article which purports to support your cause, in fact supports the impression that you are a shill.
The supposed threat of unionizing of factory employees at Tesla, in no way justifies the flood of H1Bs.
H1-Bs are not used in factory labor anyway, but in software; the H1-B phenomenon started around 2001, and was a flood by 2005, long before Tesla's recent factory, and even the union factory rate is less than the typical H1-B software salary.
Here's a piece of advise: When you're in a hole, stop digging.
Stop throwing worse arguments after bad, please...
You are correct. It is my personal observation of you, and your tactics.
H1-Bs are not used in factory labor anyway, but in software; the H1-B phenomenon started around 2001, and was a flood by 2005, long before Tesla's recent factory, and even the union factory rate is less than the typical H1-B software salary.
For H-1B visas, the regulations define a "specialty occupation" as requiring theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge in a field of human endeavor including but not limited to biotechnology, chemistry, architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, medicine and health, education, law, accounting, business specialties, theology, and the arts, and requiring the attainment of a bachelor's degree or its equivalent as a minimum (with the exception of fashion models, who must be "of distinguished merit and ability"). Likewise, the foreign worker must possess at least a bachelor's degree or its equivalent and state licensure, if required to practice in that field. H-1B work-authorization is strictly limited to employment by the sponsoring employer.
You didn't read it all obviously, or perhaps your comprehension level is as shallow as your Christianity & conservatism.
Go away little person. You do not even know what is encompassed by the H-1B visa program. I cannot intelligently communicate with someone who cannot see connections, even when presented with them. It wasn't about H-1B visas, but unions. Just for the record I have been in the software field for 36+ years, so I know exactly when it started and when it started to explode. You are no telling me anything I did not already know.
When you're in a hole, stop digging.
When I find myself in one I will, but in the meantime you need to follow your own advice.
Stop throwing worse arguments after bad, please...
Since you said please, here's some advice back at you, quit thinking you know it all. Because you don't. I already know I don't, but then again I do not present myself as a know-it-all.
For H-1B visas, the regulations define a "specialty occupation" as requiring theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge in a field of human endeavor including but not limited to biotechnology, chemistry, architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, medicine and health, education, law, accounting, business specialties, theology, and the arts, and requiring the attainment of a bachelor's degree or its equivalent as a minimum (with the exception of fashion models, who must be "of distinguished merit and ability"). Likewise, the foreign worker must possess at least a bachelor's degree or its equivalent and state licensure, if required to practice in that field. H-1B work-authorization is strictly limited to employment by the sponsoring employer.
None of this contradicts my observation, that H1-B visas are not used in factories: therefore, your cited article about the (threatened) Unionization of the Tesla Factory as a putative rationale for H1-Bs in Silicon Valley -- which YOU came up with, fails even by your own definition.
So it is not my comprehension which is lacking, but, as I pointed out at the beginning, your honesty...you are fulfilling two ...no, all three of Vox Day's observations of Social Justice Warriors.
1) Social Justice Warriors always lie. Originally asserted by me, now confirmed.
2) Social Justice Warriors always project...in this case, projecting your own ignorance of the H1-B practice onto me.
This is and was an H1-B thread (check the title). You defended H1-Bs as a natural response to the threat of rising labour costs. When I called you out as a liar, you attacked my character in general and attempted to change the subject to Unions.
3) Social Justice Warriors always double down: in this case, by your subsequent remarks to me.
When you got BTFO on that, you attempted to introduce an article about attempted unionization of a manufacturing factory as "proof".
When you got BTFO, you doubled down on your attacks and called ME ignorant, when you were the one who introduced a blatant, naked non-sequitur to the thread.
...incidentally, leaving entirely unaddressed, the proof that the H1-B visa phenomenon is NOT driven by existing high labour costs, as your original contention stated.
Of course they use the program just like their competitors do, to enhance their bottom line. They do not have to make payments for social security, medicare, unemployment (all onerous regulations in their opinion), or retirement.
Unions hogtie companies down the road and affect their bottom lines, and that is why they fear them. If you had bothered to even read the article you would have learned that unions are turning their efforts towards Silicon Valley, because it is such a rich environment. In fact, the unions themselves privately support the H-1B visa program because it generate fear among the American workers there, thus giving the unions an in with the American workers.
I take it chess was never your game.
This is a total script-flip. I said the Silicon Valley *abuses* the H1-B program (in addition to the visa holders themselves!), NOT that they fear the H1-B visa.
The reason I disdained the article was that unionization of a nuts-and-bolts factory, even *if* physically located geographically within Silicon Valley, is not likely to make significant inroads into the software industry: H1-Bs are loved because they are at the mercy of the employer's good graces, and can neither transfer nor strike...and the preponderance and/or threat of H1-Bs mean even the remaining US citizen programmers have comparatively little leverage.
Not to mention the famous old commercial from EDS (Ross Perot's old company) talking about how managing programmers was like herding cats.
Incidentally, I saw your response to @central_va...I see that you claimed to be vociferously against H1-Bs. But your initial posts on this thread, continue to give very much the opposite impression.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Courtesy *PING* as you are mentioned by me in post #114 this thread.
If you see something getting ready to pounce on you, do you not take steps to counter that?
That is what Silicon Valley is doing by hiring even more H-1B visa holders, and their cry for even more to be allowed. They cannot unionize foreign workers.
Let's just agree to disagree and drop it.
(And if H1-B engineers and programmers are so superior, why did BIll Joy invent Java, and why did Sun Microsystems crater after going all-in on H1-Bs? Why did Hewlett-Patel crater after Carly Fiorina proclaimed, "No American has a right to a job?"
I think there is more than the money, and it is related to the attempt to forcibly allow in gazillions of Mexicans, Indians, Somalis, and assorted jihadists...
Fare thee well.
I don’t know?
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