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To: steve86; kearnyirish2
You’re welcome to join those of us who are perpetually teetering on the fence on that issue.

The issue of sedevacantism has fascinated me for a long time.

It's difficult to navigate between the serious flaws I see in sedevacantism (i.e. doesn't it presume that the Holy Spirit has abandoned the Church, and, if this is the case, how and when is the Holy Spirit to return) with the extremely troubling issues I have with Francis and many of the bishops.

My very first thought two and a half years ago when Benedict XVI resigned/retired was that there was something seriously wrong. The papacy is a solemn office, not something to quit at any time.

History is replete with "bad" popes (notably those from the 15th and 16th century) who used the papacy as an instrument to acquire power and wealth for themselves and their families; however, they DID NOT teach dogmatic error. Francis certainly doesn't seem interested in any personal power or wealth, but he has almost certainly embraced the modernism so wonderfully refuted by Pope Piux IX and Pope Saint Pius X.

It is interesting to consider that Pope Alexander VI (a man who nearly all agree embodied corruption and greed) was far less harmful to the Church than Pope Francis.

79 posted on 09/24/2015 11:18:04 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

I don’t second-guess Benedict’s decision; I don’t believe JPII did the Church any favors by remaining in office when he seemed incapacitated.

Francis doesn’t seem interested in mentioning Church teachings; he seems more of a “community organizer” - and this won’t stop the general decline of the Church in the secular West.

Jesus said the Church was eternal; I accept that, and the flawed people that may represent it. I certainly don’t have to defend them, though; everything I’ve heard from him so far seems to be something the Dalai Lama might say.


88 posted on 09/24/2015 11:51:50 AM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic warfare against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: wagglebee
It's difficult to navigate between the serious flaws I see in sedevacantism (i.e. doesn't it presume that the Holy Spirit has abandoned the Church, and, if this is the case, how and when is the Holy Spirit to return)

No, it doesn't presume that the Holy Spirit has abandoned the Church. What is happening today, and during good or bad historical papacies as well, is totally under God's control. Just as He can bestow Grace upon peoples and nations, He can punish them and chastise His own Church as well. In other words, we, as members of His Church, are getting what we deserve. Now maybe you and I don't feel so deserving, but numerous bishops, priests and (no longer) faithful definitely are. This is the state of The Church and the world today. We can only pray that the Holy Spirit spares us a worse pontiff in the future and more severe chastisements for the nation and world.

103 posted on 09/24/2015 2:59:13 PM PDT by steve86 (Prophecies of Maelmhaedhoc OÂ’Morgair (Latin form: Malachy))
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To: wagglebee
History is replete with "bad" popes (notably those from the 15th and 16th century) who used the papacy as an instrument to acquire power and wealth for themselves and their families; however, they DID NOT teach dogmatic error.

If they were espousing the false narrative of the catholic Mary they were.

If they were espousing you can lose your salvation they were.

123 posted on 09/25/2015 4:51:55 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: wagglebee
Francis certainly doesn't seem interested in any personal power or wealth, but he has almost certainly embraced the modernism so wonderfully refuted by Pope Piux IX and Pope Saint Pius X.

It is easy to claim disinterest in power and wealth when people do as you say, and you are secure in all things.

134 posted on 09/25/2015 6:59:49 AM PDT by ecomcon
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