Then yet again, you've not really read my posts, and do not know your history.
In fact, our Founders contemplated "disunion" in 1787 and beyond, and they are consistent in their responses to it: disunion was acceptable when it came through 1) mutual consent, or 2) from some abuse of usurpation of federal powers.
But neither condition existed in 1860 when Deep South Fire Eaters first began declaring their secession -- so those declarations were unconstitutional.
But those declarations of secession did not cause Civil War.
Neither did their formation of a new Confederate government in early 1861.
Neither did their dozens of provocations of war in seizing Federal forts, ships, arsenals and mints, among others.
Civil War did not come because the Deep South declared secession and formed a new Confederacy.
Civil War did finally come when the Confederacy provoked, started (at Fort Sumter) and formally declared war on the United States, May 6, 1861, simultaneously sending military aid to pro-Confederates in Union states.
All of that happened before a single Confederate soldier was killed in battle with any Union force, and before any Union army invaded a single Confederate state.
Yes, I know, these are facts which pro-Confederates are desperate to ignore or obfuscate, since you people want a debate over the legality of secession, in 1860.
But I'm saying that debate is irrelevant, doesn't matter, since secession is not what caused Civil War.
The Confederacy started and lost their Civil War, and that's all there is to it, FRiend.
ought-six: "If you are one of those 'My country, right or wrong; folks, then any further discussion is pretty meaningless.
Because such a sentiment implies that no matter what your country does, no matter what or whom it oppresses and violates, it is okay with you."
Now you're just being ridiculous.
The truth of this matter is that you, my FRiend are the 'My country, right or wrong' folk because you stand by and defend your country, through thick or thin, regardless of facts, right or wrong, you worship at their graves.
But like most-all the pro-Confederates who post on these threads, your country is not the USA, it's the CSA, and on these threads at least, there's nothing y'all won't say to defend them, let the facts be d*mned.
The USA is so gay.
FACT: April 15, 1861...Lincoln called for 75,000 volunteers to “suppress the rebellion.” (Seen throughout the country as a declaration of war against the seceded states.)
FACT: April 19, 1861...Lincoln ordered the blockade of Southern ports. (In and of itself an act of war against the South.)
FACT: April 27, 1861...Lincoln ordered an expanded blockade to include North Carolina and Virginia; (Another act of war against the South.)
May 6, 1861...The South declares war against the North.
So, who started the war? Don’t say the South when it fired on Fort Sumter, because Fort Sumter was in South Carolina, which had seceded, and thus was not a part of the United States, and a United States military force was occupying South Carolina territory and refused to vacate it. So, who actually initiated aggression against an independent country? Lincoln’s federals did when they blockaded Southern ports. All prior to the South declaring war. It’s like December, 1941. Did the war with Japan begin when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor? Or did it begin when Roosevelt asked for and Congress issued a Declaration of War a few days later? Of course that war began on December 7, 1941 with the Japanese attack on pearl Harbor.
Did WWII in Europe begin on September 1, 1939 with the German attack on Poland? Or did it begin later when the Poles could make a declaration of war? It began on September 1, 1939 with the German invasion of Poland.
Finally, you snidely assert that my country is NOT the USA. You can kiss my white ass, bub, because USA is my country, a country I proudly served during Vietnam while in the US Air Force.