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To: DiogenesLamp
Who was in no position to stop the war.

Of course Davis was. If you don't start the war the there is no war to stop.

If you are comparing Ft. Sumter to Pearl Harbor, you are really grasping at straws. How many men died during the attack on Ft. Sumter? Wasn't it NONE?

OK, so if the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor and sunk all those ships and destroyed all those airplanes but by some miracle had not killed anyone then would you still be saying there was no cause for war?

If you are suggesting that the South was going to Invade the North, you are insane. Why wouldn't it have ended with Ft. Sumter? Do you have info on Confederate troop movements massing along the border or something? My recollection is that the first battle caught them off guard. They really didn't expect it.

There was still Fort Pickens and Fort Jefferson in Florida in U.S. hands. Why should we think that Davis wouldn't have then transferred his attention to those?

The attack on the Lusitania is what you refer to in regards to World War I.

The Lusitania was sunk in May 1915. The U.S. declared war in April 1917. Do you still contend that the Lusitania was the sole reason?

As far as the war of 1812 was concerned, it was not just about the Chesapeake–Leopard Affair (1807, five years earlier than 1812) it was about the continued impressment of American sailors onto British ships. Apparently they felt as you do, that people don't have a right to independence.

You know, this is going nowhere because your arguments grow more idiotic by the moment. You seem to think that independence should be handed to people. That they should not be opposed. And that is asinine. The South wanted independence to protect their slaves? Fine, they chose war as their way to go about achieving it. And they lost that war. That was their own fault. Yet you blame Lincoln because he won. Because he didn't roll over in the face of rebel aggression and say, "Don't hurt me! Just go away!" You say that the South was stupid to start the war and the North was even more stupid not to surrender. Well I honestly don't know how to contest a crazy stance like that. I'll leave you to the other people on this forum who are far more learned on the subject than I and have far more patience.

426 posted on 04/13/2015 11:38:36 AM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: DoodleDawg

“There was still Fort Pickens and Fort Jefferson in Florida in U.S. hands. Why should we think that Davis wouldn’t have then transferred his attention to those?”

Excellent point. The fact was that the insurrectionists overwhelmed many many federal facilities in anything-but peaceable maneuvers. Any one of these could and should have been defined as acts of war. It’s just Fort Sumter that got the notoriety.

Confederate Confiscations

Alabama seizures:
United States Arsenal at Mount Vernon
Fort Morgan
Fort Gaines

Arkansas seizures:
United States Arsenal at Little Rock
United States ordnance stores at Napoleon
United States subsistence stores at Pine Bluff
Fort Smith

Florida seizures:
United States Arsenal at Apalachicola
Fort Marion
Barrancas Barracks
Fort Barrancas
Fort McRee
Pensacola Navy Yard (Warrington Ship Yard)

Georgia seizures:
Fort Pulaski
United States Arsenal at Augusta
Oglethorpe Barracks
Fort Jackson
Dahlonega Mint

Louisiana seizures:
United States Arsenal at Baton Rouge
Baton Rouge Barrack
Fort Jackson
Fort Saint Philip
Fort Pike
Fort Macomb
United States paymaster’s office at New Orleans
New Orleans Mint

Mississippi seizure:
Fort Massachusetts on Ship Island

Missouri seizures:
United States Arsenal at Liberty
United States ordnance stores at Kansas City

North Carolina seizures:
Fort Johnston
Fort Caswell
Fort Macon
United States Arsenal at Fayetteville
Charlotte Mint

Texas seizures:
United States Arsenal at San Antonio
San Antonio Barracks
Camp Verde
Fort Clark


427 posted on 04/13/2015 12:07:58 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: DoodleDawg
OK, so if the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor and sunk all those ships and destroyed all those airplanes but by some miracle had not killed anyone then would you still be saying there was no cause for war?

You think the broken rocks and burned wood of Ft. Sumter is roughly equivalent to billions of dollars worth of ships and aircraft, and other material?

Not only that, but you may not have noticed that Pearl Harbor wasn't commanding the entrance of a major Japanese city.

There was still Fort Pickens and Fort Jefferson in Florida in U.S. hands. Why should we think that Davis wouldn't have then transferred his attention to those?

There's a very good chance that they would have done so if anyone was so foolish as to try to keep those places garrisoned after Ft. Sumter, but again, removing foreign troops from your own territory can hardly be considered the same thing as an invasion or an existential threat.

If they weren't massing along the border, or preying on Northern shipping, it doesn't seem to me as if they were threatening any real Northern interests.

The Lusitania was sunk in May 1915. The U.S. declared war in April 1917. Do you still contend that the Lusitania was the sole reason?

Were you referring to some other ship that served to trigger US entry into World War I? The Lusitania is the famous case most cited, but I recall the Germans had sunk others. I think US entry into the war had more to do with the Zimmermann Telegram than anything else. The British certainly knew how to do their spy and propaganda stuff very well.

You know, this is going nowhere because your arguments grow more idiotic by the moment. You seem to think that independence should be handed to people.

Well I agree it's going nowhere, and I certainly think idiocy is involved, And Yes, I do think Independence should be handed to people if they want it. What are you, a believer in Slavery or something?

438 posted on 04/13/2015 3:25:17 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp
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