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To: Patriotic1
I think this falls under 'conscience'.

So a business should be the conscience for their customer base? Really? That's absurd. How many wedding cakes have they baked for known philanderers and certainly for non virgins - and yet used lily white? Where does it end?

Should the landscaper that mows the yard of the venue for the wedding refuse to mow that week? Should the janitorial crew refuse to clean up? Should the insurance company cancel? Seriously, where does it stop?

And speaking of conscience - what about employees who will lose their jobs if the bakery closes? What about anyone holding any debt for the business? What about the bakeries landlord? No conscience for costing these people problems?

92 posted on 09/30/2014 8:17:35 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (www.FireKarlRove.com NOW)
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To: C. Edmund Wright
Perhaps you do not understand how I was using the phrase conscience. I use it in a religious sense - not defined as how 'the world' uses it. Perhaps Catholics and non-Catholic Christians have a different understanding of the phrase conscience in the purely moral sense for a decision between the person and God - not the customers. I had referenced St Thomas More so that it would be more obvious but evidently my efforts failed.

St Thomas More was a very successful lawyer who was in the court of Henry VIII. He refused to recognize the king's marriage changes (so to speak), lost his post, came to financial ruin (and bringing his family to ruin along with him) and was beheaded (dying as a Catholic martyr). All of this because while others were able to 'go along' and support Henry's claims/beliefs, More's conscience wouldn't let him. He condemned none of his peers for their choices.

I see it exactly the same.

From the Second Vatican Council: Deep within their conscience human persons discover a law which they have not laid upon themselves but which they must obey. Its voice, ever calling them to love and to do what is good and avoid evil, tells them inwardly at the right moment: do this, shun that. For human persons have in their hearts a law inscribed by God... the more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by the objective standards of moral conduct. Yet it often happens that conscience goes astray through ignorance which it is unable to avoid, without thereby losing its dignity. This cannot be said of the person who takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin. - Second Vatican Council, The Church in the Modern World (1965), §§27

I doubt that non-Catholic Christians have it written out in such a manner somewhere, but I believe that the concept is there. Such acts of conscience usually entail serious sacrifice. It seems evident to me that these Christians are following their consciences and feel that their participation in the wedding would be active cooperation with a moral evil.

Are they right? I don't know - again I am more inclined to agree with you. But conscience is personal between God and Man so IMO supporting them is what Christians should do.

99 posted on 09/30/2014 8:39:35 AM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: C. Edmund Wright
So a business should be the conscience for their customer base? Really?

So if you rented a room in your home or ran a bed and breakfast you'd be tickled Rainbow to have Homosexual couples living in your home huh? Remember they now according to Oregon have that right. But why stop there why not the churches too? They are taking them over as well.

Jesus Christ was preaching to and ministering to sinners. He was hardest on the church leaders. He was not an enabler saying do as you will and sin is fine. He forgave when it was asked for. He also said Go and sin no more which meant changing ones life turning away from wrong.

Put perhaps you should read some of Paul's teachings. If the bakers did not know the couple was homosexual and were simply asked for a cake it's no sin or wrong. However if asked to do something to enable someones sin such as a sinful or unholy act or ritual yes it is in fact condemned and wrong in The Bible. Do not knowingly eat meat offered to idols. What do you think that means? Do not do acts that may cause someone to fall. Paul wrote that as well. Those two off the top of my head cover this situation clearly.

The couples GOD given rights were violated and their lives destroyed as well as their business. The government and judges of the state of Oregon who oppose the bakers, allowing this to happen, and make demands against their moral conscience before GOD, should be rounded up and ran out of town on a rail. People should spit when such as they are seen and turn away. They are Tyrants. they seek to destroy.

In a more rational time in our nation no judge or elected official would have allowed this. Today the bakery tomorrow the church. The unholy standing in the pulpit preaching Satan's lies. No church would be able to fire such a person under these laws. Look at how many churches of today that have already fallen away calling good evil and evil good. They have put an abomination before GOD's alter. They stand where they should not be. Such acts in history have brought desolation on those who did not turn away. What is real sad is our nations leaders including Republicans pander to the homosexual activist groups now.

Homosexuals are not pushing this to say can't we all just get along. That isn't their agenda at all. No indeed they are forcing a takeover. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah? Homosexual men demanding Lot turn over his guest to them for sex. Never underestimate Satan's disciples agenda. Don't be deceived.

A person can pray that the hearts of homosexuals change and the homosexuals turn from their ways of destruction to themselves and others. As Christians or Jews we should pray for sinners to repent. Some groups like Focus on The Family have ministries to try and help homosexuals out of that lifestyle. That doesn't by any stretch though mean we should enable them in any manner that points to acceptance of their lifestyle.

Homosexuals have made just about every aspect of life theirs. They have even turned GOD's reminder to mankind he would not flood the world again into their flag. Remember it is Satan who tries to imitate GOD and mislead. The bakery owners need support. You may be next.

117 posted on 09/30/2014 10:07:48 AM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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