Posted on 09/18/2014 2:05:29 PM PDT by Mariner
Shockwaves reverberated through Eastern Europe tonight after Vladimir Putin boasted he could invade five NATO capitals inside two days.
This came amid new reports that almost 4,000 Russia troops are massing in Crimea close to Ukraine's mainland.
'If I wanted, Russian troops could not only be in Kiev in two days, but in Riga, Vilnius, Tallinn, Warsaw or Bucharest, too,' Putin was quoted as threatening, according to Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko.
All are former USSR or Soviet-bloc cities and apart from Ukraine their countries are now NATO and EU members.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
Actually it would be the first ice crean stand ... We used to send up ice cream and Coke to the hovering Russian mil hilos who would come to ‘inspect’ our position back in the day.
And the Russians still have 35,000 T-72 tanks in mothballs ... they have no reverse gear ... only forward. Any attempt to use the secret reverse gear will be met with special ‘gifts’ from the Spetnaz.
There is a special quality in quantity ... which handfuls of modern tanks could not overcome. And moreover, Russia will quickly achieve air superiority over Poland, and bring in serious tank busting SU 25s to treat the 900 or what remains.
Do not judge the Russian mil capability by the handful of units and troops stationed on the Ukraine border. Then there are the Russian T90 tanks - M1A1 variant killers. BTW, all the Russian best mil stuff and troops are (or was) on the Chinese border.
If Russia really, really wants Poland, Russia will take Poland, no matter what or who is thrown at them.
“And a sniper in every window.”
To which building the Russians would fit artillery rounds, as they did in Berlin.
I think that many posters here way underestimate the Russian mil and vastly overinflated NATO/US mils relative capabilities.
Statistics are no guide to anything, except more statistics.
The US has only tried its weapons on third rate mils using way out of date Russian equipment, manned by poorly trained soldiers whose only aim is to collect a salary. Knowledge of modern US/European relative weapon effectiveness against modern Russian weapons is only theoretical, not demonstrable.
One only needs to listen to US and Russian mil exercises to see the difference between the two. For instance, underwater river crossings by armored vehicles: there are obvious logs coming down a river (which will damage the tank or knock off the air tube killing the crew) - the US tanker waits to cross, the Russian tanker goes anyway. The US advance is halted, the Russian advance continues.
Or: Russian mil units always communicate positions via code, US units, despite training to the contrary, often gives positions in the clear. No one knows where the Russian crew is, the position of the US crew is known, down to the apple tree it is hiding behind.
Calling up a Russian unit in Russian - (pretending to be another Russian unit) is met with angry demands for ID, doing the same thing in reverse to a US unit is met with “hey what’s up, etc”. The penalty for a Russian unit not using code is immediate execution of the whole unit, for the US unit is maybe an Article 15 at some future date (just the guy who made the call).
US helicopter survival time in combat with Russian forces was estimated to be 15 seconds ...
It all may well come down to who achieves air superiority first and maintains it, as well as who has the shortest, most survivable, and efficient supply routes.
The devil is in the details, not the statistics. The Russian Bear is not gone, just hibernating.
That statement is a treatise on modern warfare.
We would control the air...after SUBSTANTIAL losses.
The Russians would have the shorter supply lines.
Right now, China is pretty much Communist in name only. The only reason China has a strong economy is because Nixon stupidly opened them up for trade with Capitalist Westerners. Otherwise, Mao’s policies were taking them down the crapper. With their “economic opportunity zones” China has opened the Pandora’s box of Capitalism, and the Chinese people want a slice of the good life. If we foment Chinese dissent of our own, then we keep Beijing occupied with retaining power rather than world conquest.
Do you know how long it takes to get 35,000 tanks out of mothballs AND get new crews for them? NATO forces would be in Moscow before they’re ready!
“There is a special quality in quantity ... which handfuls of modern tanks could not overcome.”
BS, Western tanks were designed specifically to overcome numbers. Again, the Russian mothball tank fleet really doesn’t come into the equation.
“Russia will quickly achieve air superiority over Poland, and bring in serious tank busting SU 25s to treat the 900 or what remains.”
Really, Russian pilots didn’t do very well in Georgia. Its hard to bomb tanks without a GPS system (which we have control of).
“Then there are the Russian T90 tanks - M1A1 variant killers. BTW, all the Russian best mil stuff and troops are (or was) on the Chinese border.”
Really? exactly how many Abrams Tanks have T-90s killed? Their best guys are on the Chinese border? They might as well be on the dark side of the Moon, because they cant respond in time to a war in the West!
Underestimating a foe is bad, but overestimating them is worse. Lets keep it real.
I'm not sure about that...but I'll bet Beijing troops could be in five Siberian capitals in two days.
Putin is looking in the wrong direction.
Not trying to under or overestimate - just some items for consideration.
The Georgia op was carried out by mostly Russian mercenaries - battle testing new tech, if you will.
M1A1s haven’t killed a T-90 yet either - which is the point - no one knows exactly how well one or the other would do in real combat.
Don’t need GPS to point and shoot at a hot target. Russian SA and TanktoTank anti-tank missiles are optical or thermal, I believe.
Their GLOSNASS satellites, while not as optimal as the US mil GPS ones, are functional for the situation proposed. The question you may want to ask is: will Obizmo allow the Russians to build GLOSNASS monitoring stations in the US?
Fair enough, I’m not saying that Russia would be a cakewalk for NATO, but it probably wont be like facing the 1941 Wehrmacht either.
Even Nato’s Col. Breedlove would agree with that and did so after Crimea’s Referendum. He and other Commanders said they were astonished at how effective Russia's capabilities were..... However, Putin also showed his hand then...and now they know.
“For instance, underwater river crossings by armored vehicles”
WTF ? Everyone train that.
I’m afraid I don’t understand “WTF ? Everyone train that.”
Try again.
Underwater river crossings by armored vehicles. Everyone train that and there’s nothing special in the way Russians do it.
No their exercises are entirely different from US training. I listened to too many Russians - too many screaming as they drowned while their commanders urged the rest of them on.
Not saying special, just different.
Perhaps in 50’s. These days they use pretty much the same safety rules during such trainings as the western armies. You can easily find it on YT videos and elsewhere. Kremlin is running a vast psychological operation to convince people in the west that Russian army is some kind of invincible fighting machine and that western governments must stay out of Kremlin's way or else... In fact they made some improvements in recent years but at the cost of size, so Russian army these days is relatively modern, mobile, professional and so on but it is totally unprepared for any large scale invasion. They would be struggling to conquer the whole Ukraine, even more so to hold it. And If they try to enlarge the army keeping the quality, the whole thing is going to implode just like in the 80’s.
Exactly, people seem to forget that the World Wars were devastating not just because of the weapons and vehicles involved, but because of the sheer numbers of MEN involved. The World Wars saw millions of men fighting for every nation involved, that would not happen today. Not only would mass enlistment not be feasible, but mass conscription would be next to impossible. If any future conventional war breaks out between Russia and NATO, both sides will have to go to war with the few troops they have. Which gives NATO a distinct advantage. I find this situation reminiscent to warfare of the Middle Ages and Renaissance. The professional armies were small and supported by volunteers and mercenaries.
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