[Talisker]

Kennard: So, in your estimation, how were the killings carried out?

Irish Eyes: You might be interested in some (holocaust denial) reading

BereanBrain: You sir, are on the slippery slope of denial.

Still Thinking: That’s interesting. My comment was aimed at Holocaust denial on general rather than gas chambers in particular.

I wrote my post very carefully. Every word counts and addresses all these issues. You all want to start slinging holocaust denial at me, you're flat-out lying about my actual words. I won't go into a defense of each of my specifics, Google is your friend. It's called a complex subject that has heavy political overtones and self-righteous blowhards all over it, and I'm not interested.

But I will say this. I'm Polish, and there's no Polish holocaust memorial in D.C. and I know damn well there's never going to be one - and I know why. Because politically, Jewish holocaust victims count more than Polish holocaust victims, that's why. Not only did Poles die in death camps, they had their country flattened and entire villiges murdered and bulldozed. I don't need lectures on the evils of Nazism by people who want the Jews deaths to count more than anyone elses - they don't. And I'm not convinced, after a lot of reading, that poison gas was used to any statistically significant degree in the camps, nor that the actual camp structures evidence its use, at least anywhere near the degree it's claimed.

And it simply wasn't necessary. Starvation, disease, overwork, hangings and shootings were plenty efficient. You don't need anything else - unless you need to make a special group of people seem like they suffered more than anyone else, so that you can argue they deserve their own country.

Even then, I'm not saying that wasn't politically necessary. The USA and Canada and many countries turned down most, if not all Jewish refugees when the Nazis offered them to the world. So without some compelling distinction, I can see the thinking that the Jews would be just as stateless after WWII as they were before it, unless they claimed something dramatic to get world support for the (re)creation of Israel. Not to mention that Israel happens to BE the Jewish homeland in the first place. So there's all that, and it's valid.

But no, I'm not convinced at all that poisoned gas was used to any significant degree in the camps for mass murder purposes, and no, that's not holocaust denial at all. It's a discussion of something that I believe is untrue, unnecessary and - IN FACT - is used by REAL holocaust deniers to prop up the rest of their claims with a factoid. In other words, like in most things, the lie is the problem.

Specific words mean specific things, so stop circling like vultures. You're welcome to contribute critical thinking, but keep your claws in and think through what I'm trying to communicate here. It's not what your knees are jerking towards.

[MacNaughton]

25 But I will say this. I'm Polish, and there's no Polish holocaust memorial in D.C. and I know damn well there's never going to be one - and I know why. Because politically, Jewish holocaust victims count more than Polish holocaust victims, that's why. Not only did Poles die in death camps, they had their country flattened and entire villiges murdered and bulldozed. ...

My neighbor is of Polish descent and a Roman Catholic from Chicago. About 7 years ago he was doing contract work for U.S. Steel (he retired from them) in eastern Europe. One weekend he made the journey to Auschwitz. He said that there are books there with the names of the victims and he found his family surname - Dobrinski. The experience shook him up, and he made a point of sharing his pictures and story with all of his friends.

And in the long list of atrocities during WWII, I still recall the Soviets murdering 20,000 Polish POWs in the Katyn Forest.

[Still Thinking]

Dude! How can I be “slinging Holocaust denial at you” when I was referring to a post I made before you even entered the conversation AND is not even in the tone of what I posted? I’M the one who should be getting hacked off about people reading things into my post that aren’t there. Sheesh!

[BereanBrain]

You are not convinced for some reason other than facts.

Did you read the lengthy article I posted?

It covers your “technical” concerns, and has interviews with Nazi guards, and testimony from war crimes trials.

In any court in the world (even Germany) it is admitted the Nazis used gas to kill millions.

Facts are stubborn things.

[flaglady47]

“It’s not what your knees are jerking towards.”

Oh, I don’t know about that. Indeed, I don’t know about that. Something smells rotten in Denmark.

[rmlew]

1. The gas was very real as are the dead at exterminations like Majdanek, so many of my family were killed.
2. Indeed all the victims of the Holocaust should be mentioned. So should Hitler's plans for the decimation, ethnic cleansing and enslavment of Slavs. But I notice you failed to mention the mass murder of the Gypsies/Roma/Sinti. I'm not sure if the issue is that you just don't give a damn about them, of if you are blinded by your own grievances to the detriment of others. Ironically, this is exactly the problem with Jews who focus only on Jewish victims only. The one thing I don't get is the need to claim that fewer Jews died. Lets say that only 5 million died. Does that really change anything?