Posted on 07/21/2014 7:58:16 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
Common sense says that since there was no need (militarily) for the Ukraine government to field a SAM system, largely because there was no air attacks to defend against.
Secondly because the particular area where the SAM was launched was in the control of the so called “separatists”.
The Russian propaganda that you read and are now attempting to use as a refutation to the obvious can only be considered to be utter baloney and obvious favorable propaganda issued by Russian agents located almost everywhere in media.. and everywhere else.
If Putin has been shorting the MICEX (Russian stock market), then maybe he's been personally profiting from his official failures. But, if he's been trying to strengthen his country, then he's been a failure.
I did not refute any published news about Russia’s probable involvement in the shoot down. I wanted to point out that Russia probably had supplied the Ukraine with such capable missiles when their man was president. When their man left the Ukraine in a hurry the missiles did not go with him. I gather you are not historically up on tricks and lies used by all nations over times to further political actions. Think of Hitler and WWII in which I served. Think of Ike and the U2 incident. Think of LBJ and the Gulf of Tonkin. Think about Khrushchev and the Cuban crisis. Think about all the disinformation put out by Arab nations. With many years in my mind I believe I am closer to reality and knowing sometimes one’s common sense is just that, common but not necessarily factual.
Just like the Ruskies here on FR they will never admit Russia or Putin is ever guilty of anything.
There could be video of Putin stabbing a old Ukrainian veteran 42 times and his video taped confession of it and they would excuse it away as Kiev propaganda.
Russia could nuke the US and the Ruskies here would blame the Ukrainian bellboy at the Holiday Inn in NYC or how it is the US’s fault.
Yes, but they (Ukraine) had no reason to be shooting at anything flying at 33,000 ft. and headed east / coming from Western Ukraine on a clearly “commercial flight” trajectory.
Also, on another thread here on FR (I’m not sure which), it was noted that contrary to oft stated opinion, the Russian BUK system would NOT recognize a commercial airliner as such, unless it was tied into the local air traffic control. Who’s missile systems would be more likely NOT tied into ATC from Kiev?
Putinistas on this site, too, are in love with him and cannot believe he did this. They think he’s just a good fellow, and they think all that talk about the KGB is either not true or just a youthful indiscretion. The fact that his pops was a commie secret policeman doesn’t matter. The fact that he steals from his people doesn’t matter either. The fact that he’s president for life doesn’t matter. To them, he’s a find conservative.
Are you in love with Putin?
Since you brought it up, the US has a rather poor performance record compared to the Russians who are expert and well trained at counter intelligence the use of it to agitate populations and their governments in countries where they have a strategic interest. Or to respond to what they view as aggression. The US record of success, except for a string of good results during the Eisenhower administration has been rather poor and in fact pretty sad... In WWII the Roosevelt and Truman admins were infiltrated with both Nazi and Russian spies. The Russians were very successful in the US. They were able to steal out first atomic bomb plans and the B-29 to deliver it. The Nazi's were more effective in Great Britain where their agents were able to steal papers right off the desk of the Prime Minister's office. The Nazi's, for example, during WWII, went into Mexico and stirred up passions of many people there to demand from the US, the return of Texas, New Mexico and Southern California, leading eventually to a movement that we are dealing with today.
Much of what you read in the media today is in fact propaganda. Some of it from the US government, and regarding the Ukraine, it comes from Russia, placed in the foreign press which is picked up by media in the US.
There is no question that the Ukrainian govt. responds to it with their own versions of the truth.
But I don't decide what is true and what is not true by reading what they put in print or in the media and nor should you, if you have the experience that you claim to have.
That article and variations of it about the Ukrainian gov’nt launcher, supposedly with the same numbers on it that were purportedly also on the launcher that launched the missile, is out right disinformation and propaganda.
As is the vast majority of pro-Russian articles that have been circulating in the media.
But I did not even attempt to say the current Ukrainian Govt does not have SAM’s or launchers. If you read what I said about it, I stated that there was no logical reason for them to deploy one, and that the area where this missile came from was not in their control anyway.
Thus it would be entirely unfeasible for a Ukraine gov’nt launcher and crew to be in that area at that time. Not to mention again, that they are not fighting off air attacks, which is the only purpose for a SAM. The Russian Separatists have no planes.
I'm not so sure about the 2nd part of that. While still vulnerable to having some troops cut off, especially in the area to the south of, oh, say Amvrosiivka to Krasnodon, the Ukrainians have significantly pushed back the rebels, who themselves will be cut off in their entirety if Kiev can manage to close off the remaining 20 miles or so of border that Ukraine presently does not control...
There is some HEAVY weaponry fighting going on: I've seen comparisons of intensity to WW2, although in a more limited area of course. That is probably overstated a bit, but this is nothing like U.S. operations in Afghanistan, for example. Eastern Europeans and Russians don't mess around once they get going.
At any rate, especially if Russia pulls back on the air defenses for the rebels, and since Putin seems reluctant to commit to a major direct Russian ground op, I think it's possible that Ukraine can win this round before winter arrives. This creates an interesting scenario: Would Ukraine be content with the then status quo, or would they try to isolate Crimea and possibly start trouble from within, in 2015?
Now, if you mean that the US is unlikely to be directly involved in a shooting war with Russia, I agree. But a proxy war via Ukraine could go on for some time.
Leaving the "incompetent" argument aside, I don't think there's much "somehow" involved. Countries usually get the leadership they deserve, especially when it happens repeatedly. Unfortunately, this is true even in the US: I think my country can still produce another Reagan, for example, but would this country would again elect such a leader? I am less sure of that. :-(
Ooops, you will burst the Putinistas bubble
AS if any of that has to do with KGB man at the head of the Soviet (formerly known as Russia) government.
Pick up the phone.... Alex wants to chat
That is so ridiculous. To call out a KNOWN commie KGB man (first, last, and always) by saying ‘well look at what Obama does” is as childish as it gets. One can condemn Putin without supporting O
And you hope you are right but the truth is Putin sees weakness in the US. He doesn’t have to be in a ‘shooting’ war. His proxies are doing that for him. Apparently you forget the Sandinistas and their ilk over the years (Korea, Viet Nam, etc). Putin is a well versed KGB man first last and always. He wants the destruction of all that you hold dear. Because he doesn’t cut off heads on video does not make him less dangerous
However, I think it's likely that he will use intelligence agents and propaganda to force another political change without the carnage in the Ukraine and do the same with the other former satellites., as Obama is far too weak in the knees to follow through with a US intervention in any way. Even military support seems to be off the table.
Allies, both former and current have already assessed Obama correctly for what he is and they realize that they cannot depend on support, even when it's promised by the US or it's agents. Our ability to project power has been decimated.
Putin will continue doing what he's doing, and nobody will intercede. Not unless there is a major change in US policy and I don't see it happening until the election in 2016.
In the interim he is going to have a unrestricted period of expansion. I don't see anything standing in his way but rhetoric, and even that is weak.
Yes, You never turn your back on a Russian, or a Chinese, to be blunt.
And yes, there have been many proxy battles, including the Korean and Vietnamese wars. The Ukraine and Georgia are repeated recent examples.
Central America is another cold war proxy that is still in play.
The Russians see it as payback for Afghanistan. They are not going to let up. You can’t appease them and in all respects, Putin and company have awakened the Bear.
Where it leads...could be anything, depending on how events play out. But in my view, if we don’t stand in his way and engage, war is more likely than less likely as some seem to believe.
History tells us that appeasement with foes like this, is strategic error. They use it to do more and they become absolutely fearless.
The Russian propaganda is SO ridiculous that they are attempting to claim that the Ukrainians placed a BUK battery in rebel controlled territory (huh?) and then shot down a plane coming from Western Ukraine @ high altitude (still climbing but should have been “radar visible” for what, close to 200 miles away?) Plus, the airliner was in a known commercial flight path, and Ukrainian missile batteries would likely be tied into local (Kiev) ATC, while a rebel battery would not. Then Kiev extracted the battery from rebel held territory, with evidently no interference then, either. Righto...
But, leave that aside: Putin’s own comments pretty much confirmed to me that his boys (whether trained Ukrainian separatists, Russian operatives, or flat out Russian military personnel) were the shooters.
Depends how you approach this issue... what he is doing is of course not in the long term interest of the Russian nation but I doubt he cares about it... Putin is a head of a mafia ring made of oligarchs and KGB guys, they steal countless billions each year, recent Olympics alone cost Russia +$50 billion, obviously at least half of that must have been stolen... During a previous decade they made a progress from a shyt hole to a mid income country due to high oil & gas prices but that's it, with all this kleptocracy going on they will not move forward any more and support for Putin has been on the downward trend in recent years... so his crew found a way to go around it - start a conflict to rise support and consolidate power, all of that is a way to move to in your face “I'm a Tasr for life and I will pick up the next guy” regime without the risk of internal revolution. When there's a conflict any opposition can be easily labeled as traitors and they have been implementing it quite well, so I would say he's quite competent in that sense.
Similarly, that little guy in North Korea could easily bring in foreign assembly lines into the country, improve greatly the quality of life and slowly transfer that strange place into a normal country but then what ? He would have to leave at some point. So instead he keeps the whole nonsense going on, when everyone thinks it's getting better, they come up with another nuclear test, launch a ballistic missile over Japan or bomb some border area.
I’ve often wondered about Russian polls.
If you were a Russian, how would you respond to a poll about KGB PUTIN?
I stopped responding to US polls for the very reason you illude to.
Obama will respond with more nuance than anyone on earth has ever seen in one place at one time. Putin will be so frightened of the nuance, he will put a shirt on.
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