Posted on 06/14/2014 11:16:42 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
Nor the Amerikaleftists.
Plato’s ‘Republic’, paganism, Greek pederasty and Roman cruelty are as much a part of the heritage of Western Civilization as the Biblical morality that has reined in those things.
This really is a different culture than it was a generation ago.
There is a difference. I don’t see the USA (and by that I mean the general public, not the institutions) is as far gone as Western Europe. We’re not at that stage yet.
But in terms of Ukraine, to intervene is to essentially do the Western European’s job for them. Its their continent, why are we still babysitting these countries? If they want to sit it out, then fine, Vladimir Putin gets what he wants and will be emboldened to advance. They want to fight, go ahead, its about time.
But ideologically I just cannot see how conservatives have a dog in this fight or any preference for the outcome.
Well, that’s a given. We hate them obviously, but some refuse to see political ideology in foreign countries no matter how blatant it is.
Precisely. We are now counter-cultural whether anyone wants to admit it is irrelevant. We want to counter what has become ‘western culture’.
What I see is a pro-Russian empire element that has turned against the United States and NATO.
Pretty much what I have seen every decade of my life.
Probably not, but ideas like gay marriage seem to get their start in the US so a lot of the Bush-era US vs. EU rhetoric looks flimsy and silly.
We are not just conservatives, we are patriotic Americans, so we do not support our own nation’s mortal enemies. All of your ideological reasons for hating America and western civilization are irrelevant.
We don’t know that a majority voted for Obama. Our voting system is highly suspect, to put it mildly. One thing that is for sure is that we have a majority of liberals in Congress and they all work together, not for the country’s good.
...Quit looking at everything from only America's perspective. Look at how other nations might perceive us. They certainly have as much right to exist and pursue their interests as we, and just because they don't use dollars to kowtow to American might doesn't mean they're our enemies.
How dare we? Maybe because I put American interests ahead of Russian interests. Russia is 'meddling' on a far greater and a more merciless scale to countries they are still capable of 'meddling' in. It's just on a smaller scale, and quite frankly, I think both American and Ukrainian interests would be better served if Russia's expansionist interests were 'meddled' with and thwarted.
America has also generally tried to create democracies and freedom across the world, which would naturally align with America over that of Russian Bolshevism. People who doubt that can ask Germany, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines and dozens of other countries how American influence has pushed them in the right direction.
Russia, Iran and China's 'meddling' has instead propped up dictatorships and oppressive governments all over the world, because they know democracies by their very nature would rather align with the free world. This is another reason why we have a right to defend American interests and side with other countries interests over those of would-be oppressors.
If American support for Ukraine thwarts Russian expansionism, I'm all for it. Not only that, but I believe we are also acting to defend Ukrainian interests in the process. I daresay a country that is being 'meddled' in by America will probably end up being more free than a country being 'meddled' in by Russia. Russia doesn't exactly have a good track record on that.
That is pretty much the bottom line.
People aren’t seeing the push towards perhaps a bigger war than the planet has ever seen, here.
Yes, they have interests. And we have interests. As for me, I believe America has an interest in suppressing Russian revanchism.
And the Orthodox Church was originally suppressed, but was eventually co-opted into the Soviet systems of control. There is ample evidence out there of the modern Russian Orthodox Patriarchs having had careers in the FSB and the KGB before becoming Patriarch.
I see it as more complicated than that. Someone on this thread mentioned Antonio Gramsci. While I don’t believe in the Italian communist’s ghost, I see his influence on modern leftism (which was really spawned after Russia fell to communism and Marxists in Europe were trying to figure out ways of bringing the proletariat to power in countries more stable than Russia was at the end of WWI).
When the USSR began to decline rapidly, its agents really came to the fore in Europe’s democracies in the form of its ‘Social Democrat’ parties, the most notable and successful in Sweden.
In America, their success was slower. First, our political system was more resistant to takeover and installment of Marxist principles. We have a constitution that actually has an almost theological reverence. The two main parties had strong anti-communist elements. While the Republican Party adamantly opposed big government solutions even on foreign policy in the early years, the Democrat party was less interested in social engineering beyond their obsession with eugenics and more interested in peddling influence and moving money around to special interests (particularly industrial unions).
Because of this, while a lot of successful Marxist ideas originated in the US (I’d argue most of the modern homosexual rights agenda was the brainchild of American leftists), it didn’t take root here before it did in Europe. The Netherlands had homosexual marriage first. Denmark had same-sex unions first.
But are you not patriotic for ideological reasons? I see patriotism as an ideological good. Nations without patriotic populations do not last long (see Iraq). What reasons are there to be patriotic? Surely you see some ideological good in America that makes you patriotic, as all Freepers do.
And you are free to make that judgement, but you must have a limit. What depths would our society have to sink to before you changed your mind. The jailing of priests or the seizing of your firearms perhaps?
My love for the USA is not dependent on Obama. I am not going to ever support any of America’s enemies no matter what Obama does or doesn’t do. I don’t care what ideology my enemy has. I don’t care “why they hate us,” all that matters is that they do.
We are fortunate to live in the USA and be able to criticize our own government only because American patriots are ready to fight our nation’s enemies, no matter what their ideological stripe.
The progressives were and are Fabian in their approach. That’s the main difference between them and Marxists, who are violent and revolutionary.
But when you say your ‘love for the USA’, what do you mean? The country ‘The United States of America’ as designated by the UN? The land itself? The people ‘Americans’? Is that what makes the USA, or is it actually the ideology of the Founders, written down in the Constitution?
You see, I and many others could not fight for the USA under any and all circumstances, no exceptions. What if America treated me as Christians are treated in Iran? Should I fight for America then? And if there is a civil war to overthrow the constitutional revisionists? Who should I fight for? The rebels or the left wing government?
The Founders clearly stated that the people have the duty to turn against the state if the state denies them their rights under the Constitution. This is called ‘the Right to Revolution’. Its the entire reason of the 2nd Amendment.
I doubt even you can imagine no condition under which you would not be able to support the United States. I’m not saying we’re there yet, but blind allegiance totally circumvents the check and balance that the people still hold.
Fixing the USA does not mean supporting its enemies.
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