Posted on 04/18/2014 1:32:13 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
Let the Ukrainians do something. So far they are making the ARVN look competent in comparison.
I'm most certainly not an isolationist. But Russia is a huge, somewhat sparsely populated country surrounded by strong, dangerous neighbors. For hundreds of years Russia has been very sensitive to border states that it sees as potential threats. At the moment it has three threats: (1) the European Union and NATO, which could be at its doorstep if Ukraine continues to move towards the West (just as would have happened w/Georgia prior to the 2008 war), (2) Islamic extremism both within Russia and in the neighboring Stans and (3) China. Russia has been actively threatened by #1 and #2 -- and simply lacks the ability to do much of anything about #3 except beef up its nuclear deterrent. However angry Putin's actions make us, they are consistent with a long Russian tradition of perceived self interest in creating buffer states between it and potential external threats.
To be clear, I don't think Russia's invasion of Ukraine is morally defensible but it's neither surprising nor a sign that Putin is about to send tank brigades into the Fulda Gap and start World War III.
“That’s the best defense you can come up with for Putin? LoL!”
There is no excuse for Putin or Obama. But let’s be fair and name both thugs.
At the moment it has three threats: (1) the European Union and NATO, which could be at its doorstep if Ukraine continues to move towards the West (just as would have happened w/Georgia prior to the 2008 war)
Hogwash. NATO is only on Russia’s border because Russians have a nasty habit of periodically murdering their neighbors. Naturally, the neighboring countries of Russia do not want to be under Russian hegemony. We can see how much of a threat the EU is to Russia. Putin is busy committing war crimes, invading his neighbors with a fifth column and the EU has done NOTHING.
I'm not going to disagree, but I'd note two things: (1) that trait is hardly unique to the Russians (the English, Japanese, Chinese, Germans, etc. also have rather unneighborly histories; (2) other countries have a long history of invading Russia or, failing that, intervening in its internal political conflicts.
Naturally, the neighboring countries of Russia do not want to be under Russian hegemony.
Of course they don't. But so what? It's never easy to be a smaller weaker country next to a stronger, larger one. Just ask the Poles, the Mexicans or the Irish.
Putin is busy committing war crimes, invading his neighbors with a fifth column and the EU has done NOTHING.
So what would you propose? Sending German Panzer divisions to Kharkov? Because they've tried that before.
America is done being the world police. The EU has over three times the population and even more times the money than Russia does. If they want to fight about Ukrainian, no one is holding them back.
This is not a matter for the USA to get involved in.
True...but then so is everybody else in this fray....there are no good guys in this fiasco on any side. Never was.
Both Russia and the EU/US have been meddling in Ukraine for years.....politically and otherwise. It should surprise no one all sides have troops on the ground in one form or another...in uniform and out...assisting which ever side they are attempting to influence, and in some cases often..lead.
Sadly so...this has caused peoples death...it always does.
Good post...I think it was obvious from the beginning that EU and US would have little ability or desire to do much about this. Unfortunately, and once again, Ukrainians failed to recognize that they themselves have to gain their freedom...and they will never have the financial backing nor military to accomplish that.
So, why not start with the "bad actors" in the Africa and work our way North to the Ukraine?
I figure if we stop the routine slaughter of Christians by Muzzies in Africa and the Arab countries by the time we get to the Ukraine they'll have gotten the hint that we're willing to fight for our values.
Funny how little Hell raising there is over the US arming Iz Lame scum in Syria who are murdering whole little towns full of Christians but there's all this deep concern for the Ukraine. What's with that, only what the EU wants is worth defending or does dealing with reality interfere with getting the propaganda message out?
As we speak Nigerians are fighting Muzzies tooth and nail to keep terror from destroying their freedom and starting the massive murder of Christians, but Ukrainians obviously want someone else to do it for them.
As for aid, sell them all the ammo they want. Shucks, I'd even go along with selling them stockpiles the BLM, HHS, Toilet Inspectors, and other benign US agencies have at half the original price. Jumping into the Ukraine is fiddling while Rome burns, as they say. After all, the EU was started with the idea of being the primary power center in Europe to replace US influence there so let them get on with it.
Let the Ukrainians fight to the last drop of someone elses' blood, not ours.
“Calling them out is not enough, we are way past criticing Putin, what will be done?”
Nothing as far as I can tell, if Russia want’s Crimea again, Russia is going to get Crimea again. I don’t know of any treaty that obligates us to do a thing about it.
If the Ukraine wants our help they better find up a treaty to oblige us. Otherwise its none of our business.
I think the only reason the media cares about Crimea is it illustrates yet again just how much of a completely incompetent failure Obama is.
That being said I am hard pressed to care less. As far as I know we ain’t got no defense treaty with the Ukraine, that means in no uncertain terms ITS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!
There is only one place in the world where its right to fight for your own values, and that is over your own home. Russia ain’t threatening any of theses united States nor are they threatening anyone we (by treaty) are obligated to help to defend. Therefore it is none of our business.
“America is done being the world police. The EU has over three times the population and even more times the money than Russia does. If they want to fight about Ukrainian, no one is holding them back.
This is not a matter for the USA to get involved in.”
I agree, I really don’t see what is in it for us to get between Russia and the Ukraine.
Do we want Crimea? No
Do we have a defense pack with the Ukraine? No
As far as I can tell no, so getting involved would at best be to help reinforce some screwed up notion of global order to be imposed upon all other party’s and payed for by we the overburden Taxpayer.
To be blunt there is nothing in the Ukraine for us, worth the cost of getting involved. I suspect the EU will make the same judgement even thou this aggression takes place right on their door step. Just like they have done other time.
Althou if I were them I would strengthen Nato and do some military exercises to make sure Putin knows we will defend our own.
If I were President, I would tell Europe — “Act like men and stop crying to us to protect you from a bully that is less than a third your size.” Europe just wants to relax and not have any consequences for their actions, like spending nothing on defense. Until they start getting scared that they will experience some consequences, they will carry on. That are like lazy gigolos lolling around our mansion and then asking us to get in a brawl with some outlaw motorcycle gang they owe money to.
You’re missing the point. Western Europe has invaded Russia repeatedly over the centuries. In some of our lifetimes, Germany invaded Russia with an explicit, openly stated plan to genocide the Russian people and seize their land. Napoleon invaded Russia under the banner of a universalist liberal ideology that sounded a lot like Obama-ese. It was invaded by European countries several other times in between and for centuries and centuries, parts of Russia were occupied by various European empires and kingdoms.
Russia is always going to be wary about Europe because Europe is where most of the invaders have came from, especially the recent ones.
When we discuss America’s goals and strategy, we have to deal with reality as it is. Part of that entails understanding our opponents. One of the problems with the neocon mindset is that it is so drenched with moralism, emotion and self-righteousness, that it prevents an objective understanding of things. Neocons are always screwing up, as they have in Ukraine now, by not understanding other actors and making faulty predictions about what effect their policies will have. Everything they did was banked on the assumption that Putin would allow rather militant and well armed “protesters,” with heavy American backing, including strong propaganda operations, to overthrow a democratically elected president who was Russia’s ally.
They failed miserably. You better believe that everyone in service to America at the non-political/propaganda level, especially in the military and anti-terrorism communities, is mad as hell at Nuland and these other clowns for causing this to blow up and take eyes of al-Qaeda. Just like in Iraq, they got us into a big jam we could have chosen to avoid, which is priority to number one when you are in several jams already.
The status quo in Ukraine before the coup was perfectly acceptable to us. Everyone who was involved in this scheme should be tarred and feathered, just like the Iraq war morons who delivered the whole country to the Democrats by rolling the dice and losing it all when they could have just walked past the casino.
Honestly I don’t think there is a genuine threat from Russia or Putin at this time.
Putin may be an opportunistic but hes not stupid, he wont pick a fight he can’t win, and he can’t win a fight with us or the EU. Putin is clearly just going for the low hanging fruit and in the process demonstrating the absurdity of the leftist idea of “international law”.
This I am enjoying to no end.
your quote ‘’a democratically elected president who was Russia’s ally.’
Little Wrong- Yanno-asshole was a russian puppet, with his
inner circle and family looted the country of 70 billion
dollars....half of which went back to russia..
As far as neocons starting it, it was soros and some of the lib globalists who supported it, pushed it.
He and all of his inner circle are in russia now stirring
up things, His son in UK is all of a sudden a billionare
dentist..Ed
Does anyone care what the Russians do in Ukraine? Ill bet you that no more than 6% of actual US citizens give a crap in Hell. I could care less!!
“This is not a matter for the USA to get involved in.”
It is certainly the matter for the US to get involved in.
Just not with troops. Russia is a national security threat (it amazes me that the isolationist fringe of the conservative movement repeatedly asks, “what is our national interest?”, or more ignorantly state, “we have no security interest”)
Russia is an historical enemy. It supports the Iranian and other rogue nations with ballistic missile technology and other inflammatory systems. More importantly, due to its recent weakness in geopolitical and economic interactions it has become more totalitarian, more oppressive and more aggressive toward its border states. ** Nations are moving away from Russia, not to align with the West or the EU, but to get protection from a desperate Russia.
There are a multitude of non military avenues to punish Russia for its illegal actions and annexation.
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