New York joins campaign to end Electoral College role in presidential elections

No. I am not. Are you? Anybody who denies Lincoln was all about centralized power (statism), is not looking at what he did. Lincoln is the guy who arrested dissenting newspaper editors for printing critical stories, he had the Army shut down a state legislature, he suspended habeas corpus, jailed his opponents, expelled a congressman for opposing his income tax, instituted the first income tax in our history and the internal revenue bureaucracy to administer it, etc. Lincoln did many progressive type things. Most importantly, he changed our government from the decentralized and small federal government we had prior to 1860 to the huge, all powerful, centralized monster we have had ever since. You can’t lay what Lincoln did on Democrats. Lincoln was our first statist president. If it were not for Lincoln and what he built, Wilson would have been simply annoying.

No, Lincoln did not single-handedly increase the power of the federal government. That would be a lot of liberal Democratic propaganda targeting conservatives that are concerned with the sovereignty of the states, which the Democrats have historically interpreted differently to what conservatives have done, to wit subverting the Bill of Rights particularly (especially when the term “states’ rights” is used in lieu of same). It was not Lincoln that concocted the sixteenth and seventeenth amendments, and his wartime income taxes were abolished after the civil war.

Suspension of habeas corpus (a privilege, not a right) is provided for in the 1789 Constitution, Article 1, section 9. Now if it had not been restored, there would be cause for grievance. Same goes for the wartime shutdown of Maryland’s legislature, who were on the fence between the Union and the South. Seems to me that some people have funny notions of how war should be fought.

Ultimately, Lincoln was victorious because of his turn of faith, not because of any foolish or authoritarian actions on his part. Which Confederate leaders turned to God in the same way?

The Founding Fathers perhaps ought to have made habeas corpus a right instead of a privilege, then? Be careful with that argument, because Islamic terrorists incarcerated by the US are trying to make it just like a right in order to benefit themselves (specifically to change their status from enemy combatant to mere criminal); they’ve already used it to tie up the courts, especially what with having sympathetic people running the country at present.

If Article 1 Section 9 was not worded as it is, then and only then can it be argued that Lincoln acted without precedent. Lincoln was acting in the capacity of commander in chief of the armed forces there too; and there are no Constitutional provisions to direct how habeas corpus ought to be suspended, unlike the procedures needed to declare war.

Difference between slave and prisoner? If fairly tried and convicted, the prisoner is guilty of something and is headed for punishment. The slave is an innocent person.

BTW, thanks for taking the thread off track.

Habeas Corpus is a privilege? Silly me, I thought that was one of the basic cornerstones of our system of law. It has historically been used to protect individuals against arbitrary state actions. I can see why Lincoln did away with it. I can also understand why he shut down the Maryland legislature, they were probably going to oppose him. We can’t have that going on in a free country, now can we? The notion that men like Davis, Lee, Jackson and most southern people were not God fearing people who believed and prayed is simply ignorant, as is saying the north won because Lincoln turned to prayer. The north won for the same reason the allies won over Germany. It wasn’t Lincoln’s prayer that turned the tide, it was an overwhelming superiority in just about every category that finally won out. The only reason it took as long as it did for the north to win is that the leaders in the north were pretty corrupt and not particularly competent. Perhaps you also believe that the USSR won on the eastern front because Stalin prayed harder than Hitler? Speaking of funny notions on how to fight wars, don’t forget that Lincoln introduced the world to the modern notion of total war. Sherman’s deliberate strategy of pillage, plunder and rape fought against southern civilians, mostly women and children, had much to do with final victory and had Lincoln’s full support. Many leaders in other parts of the world took note and learned from it. The allies hung Nazi officers after WW2 for emulating Sherman’s strategy. Anybody who wants to know how the US government would treat civilians in case of an uprising should read a bit about Sherman to banish any illusions that the government would behave in a civilized or reasonable fashion. Lincoln died before he could implement his post war agenda. You likely don’t know any more than I do what he would or would not have abolished had he lived. I believe Lincoln was a statist on par with Bismarck and Lenin as far as centralizing power goes. I don’t think he would have abolished much had he lived. Before you go much further down the propaganda road, you should probably ask yourself why the (mostly liberal democrat) college professors who write about Lincoln and the(mostly liberal democrat) movie makers who portray him almost always depict him so positively. He was arguably the most hated president by contemporary Americans we have ever had. How did Lincoln come out looking so good with the people who run our education system, media and government? The answer is quite obvious. Anybody who loves our all powerful central government has got to be grateful to “Honest Abe”, because it is his creation.

Habeas corpus is written as a privilege in the Constitution. Ever read Article 1 Section 9 Clause 2?

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

This was even before the Bill of Rights was drawn up. (The same wording appears in the Confederacy’s Constitution, for the record, in its own Article 1 Section 9 Clause 3.) If it bears alteration, then consider how the foreign terrorists currently abuse the privilege. So what does this wording have to do with the present-day attack on the Electoral College, anyway?

Now you are being disingenuous (if not mendacious) by claiming Lincoln “did away” with something that was not done away with but suspended. Also, Davis was given the power to suspend habeas corpus by the Confederate Congress, which he subsequently did in 1862 along with declaring martial law in Richmond and many other locations around the Confederacy. Compare the actions of both with FDR’s internments.

Furthermore, I merely pointed out that it is on record that Lincoln turned to prayer. And after doing a search, I see that in 1861 there was a similar appointment of a day of fasting and prayer by the president of the Confederacy, but in a somewhat different spirit; and again in 1863. I neither implied nor openly claimed that any of the Confederate leaders had no fear of God (indeed the Confederate Constitution invoked God in its preamble whereas the US Constitution does not), but Lincoln still had the victory, so their faith must have wavered as the war wore on and/or their cause judged not righteous on high, as the internal division in the Confederacy appears to show (many in the Confederacy apparently had the perception that Davis had a greater intent to attack states’s rights than did Lincoln, and despised matters such as conscription and Davis’ own onerous taxation to fund the war effort as excessive centralization on the part of Richmond; so it may be that much of what Lincoln gets accused of during wartime, Davis is guilty of to a greater degree but also during wartime).

Comparisons between Sherman and the Nazis? Really? Have a nice day. And try to stay on topic.

It is a vote to secede; dissolves states rights; dissolves the union; and ends the peace.

Delegates to a Constitutional Convention would then be chosen by the popular vote instead of by the respective states.

Congressional districts would be chosen by the popular vote of some other states.

States become departments of the national socialist (formerly federal) government.

Establishes one party rule.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.