San Diego Man Sues U.S. Government Over a Penny

Fox 5 San Diego ^ | April 9, 2014 | Christian De La Rosa

[DogByte6RER]

SAN DIEGO

[P-Marlowe]

Parts, though, would be impossible to find.

I had a friend who had 3 Morris Minors. 1 to drive and 2 to pilfer parts from. Eventually he ran out of parts to pilfer. I think he ended up teaching automotive repair at a high school.

The British have always built their cars to ensure that there will be plenty of jobs for auto repair mechanics.

[Axenolith]

As the mint frequently used to let employees obtain early releases you have no standing to make the assumption it was stolen. In case you haven’t noticed, the burden of proof here is supposed to be on the prosecution...

[Axenolith]

They don’t auction them, they stuff them in a hole someplace. Look to the ‘33 double eagles for that fate...

[P-Marlowe]

Was there another penny made form a whiteish or gray metal? I could swear I had one once.

They ran out of copper during WWII and issued steel pennies in 1943.

There were some copper 1943 pennies that are now worth a lot of money.

[Utilizer]

Five years for lying to the FBI.

Why? I would challenge the feds to go ahead and see if it is anyplace I can access and thereby prove that it is NOT lost. Then, in ten years it might be accidentally *cough* found *cough* and more reasonably dispensed with without fed intervention that time around. Probably to someone with a residence not in this country that could afford the purchase price and where the feds could yap all they might but would not be able to get it back.

[P-Marlowe]

In case you haven’t noticed, the burden of proof here is supposed to be on the prosecution...

This is not a criminal case. The government needs to show that the coins were never released and then the burden would shift to the person possessing the item to prove it was a gift and that the person who gave the gift had the authority to do so.

I believe Mr. Lawrence is not going to be able to meet that burden because he stated he does not know how his father came into possession of it.

Once the government establishes that those pennies were ordered destroyed, the burden will shift to Mr. Lawrence to show that the penny he has in his possession was not one of those ordered destroyed. He has already admitted he can't prove that.

[P-Marlowe]

The cat is out of the bag. If the coin were to disappear at this point, the government would probably sue Mr. Lawrence for the appraised value under a theory of conversion. It was in his possession and now it isn’t. The fact that he can’t find it, does not mean he did not owe a duty to preserve it until the ownership issue is resolved.

[Axenolith]

Well, the guy should shift the venue to criminal, because they have probably said or alleged that it was stolen.

If it was a 44 steel, or a 43 copper, neither of those were “authorized” but you don’t see them trying to get the few loose ones of those. Same deal here, how can the government prove it wasn’t a loose planchet? Hell, there’s a guy on the web with one of the actual old presses from Denver and when he overhauled it, it was filled with planchets and misstrikes.

[P-Marlowe]

IIRC, there were some 43 coppers that were released. Likewise with the 44 steels. Also the government did not order a recall of those but just stopped the presses so to speak.

Regardless, the government wants this coin and they are going to end up with it. That’s the bottom line.

[Drago]

1,571,167 were produced....most destroyed at the mint. The Wiki article on this subject is pretty good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_aluminum_cent

[Utilizer]

If the coin were to disappear at this point, the government would probably sue Mr. Lawrence for the appraised value under a theory of conversion. It was in his possession and now it isn’t.

Big deal. Let them prove the worth of something not there. Worse comes to worse, I would just manufacture a new "penny" from a mold and pour molten aluminum into it to create one and let them find it on one of their searches. I once made a giant aluminum "nickel" about nine inches in diameter as a project many years ago. It is not difficult.

[P-Marlowe]

Unfortunately Mr. Lawrence has documented the coin and had it photographed. If he doesn’t produce that coin then he can be held liable for conversion and he will have to pay the government $250,000. If it is determined that he acted deliberately he could be held liable for up to $750,000.

My guess is that if he had donated to Obama, he would not be facing this nightmare. Obama is determined to reward his friends and punish his enemies.

[Smokin' Joe]

1943 pennies were made from zinc. The copper was needed for the war effort.

[Smokin' Joe]

Correction: The 1943 pennies were made from steel, with a zinc coating. 1943 steel cent

I suppose the zinc was to keep them from rusting.

[Utilizer]

Unfortunately Mr. Lawrence has documented the coin and had it photographed.

OK, then My quick-and-dirty immediate reaction would be to obtain a replacement penny with the exact same year, go to the effort of purchasing a modeler's spraypaint gun and aluminum colouring from a hobby shop, and quickly paint the replacement item the correct colour with the aluminum paint and then challenge the feds to prove it to be not the same one originally photographed. As long as it looks the same, they can not prove it to be anything other than was originally photographed without physical possession of an item incontrovertably proven to be the item originally photographed.

Make them WORK to prove it is false.

[P-Marlowe]

The question is does the government want the coin or the money?. I would offer to have the government relinquish their claim for 50% of the auction price and send the coin to auction with a clear title. The government gets 1/2 of the sale and another 1/3 of the proceeds to Lawrence in income tax.

[G Larry]

yep...cleared that up in post #13

[xzins]

1974-D specimen[edit] In January 2014, San Diego resident Randy Lawrence discovered the only specimen of the 1974-D aluminum cent currently known to exist. The coin had been in the possession of his father, a former deputy superintendent of the Denver Mint, who kept it in a sandwich bag along with other coins. Lawrence brought the coin to La Jolla coin dealer Michael McConnell, who estimated its value at a minimum of US$250,000, up to $2 million or possibly more. Lawrence and McConnell will auction the coin in April 2014 after it tours the United States and split the proceeds; Lawrence plans to donate as much as $100,000 of his share to homeless programs.[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_aluminum_cent

Sounds like some are more equal than others.

[ExSoldier]

That's funny, I just got a bill from the University of Miami for exactly .01 (cost more than that to generate the bill) and I don't even know what it was for. I took some courses there a few years ago to be able to update and extend my teaching certificate. Being a good citizen, I'll go and pay but I'm going to demand a receipt. Altogether, it will cost them several or many times the charge to get it resolved.