Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

US to stop printing nautical charts
Boston.com ^ | 10/22/13 | SETH BORENSTEIN

Posted on 10/23/2013 5:09:58 AM PDT by Rebelbase

WASHINGTON (AP) — The federal government is going into uncharted waters, deep-sixing the giant paper nautical charts that it has been printing for mariners for more than 150 years.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration announced Tuesday that to save money, the government will stop turning out the traditional brownish, heavy paper maps after mid-April.

(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS:
No problemo. Satellites and electronic devices will always be there, right?
1 posted on 10/23/2013 5:09:58 AM PDT by Rebelbase
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee

Chart ping.


2 posted on 10/23/2013 5:10:22 AM PDT by Rebelbase (Tagline: (optional, printed after your name on post))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase

One of the few ACTUAL USEFUL PRODUCTS produced by the government, and they cut it.


3 posted on 10/23/2013 5:12:21 AM PDT by Mr. K (Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and then Democrat Talking Points.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mr. K

Wanna bet USGS topo maps are next?


4 posted on 10/23/2013 5:13:20 AM PDT by Rebelbase (Tagline: (optional, printed after your name on post))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase

Do they charge anything for the charts? If they don’t, then maybe they should. If they do, and still lose money, then some private business should step in...


5 posted on 10/23/2013 5:14:00 AM PDT by Cowboy Bob (They are called "Liberals" because the word "parasite" was already taken.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mr. K

A private entity will start doing it and make money in the process - happens all the time ...


6 posted on 10/23/2013 5:15:04 AM PDT by Ken522
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Mr. K

When the lights go out........... Sextant/protractor/compass. Just sayin’.


7 posted on 10/23/2013 5:16:06 AM PDT by rktman (Inergalactic background checks? King hussein you're first up.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Ken522

Yellowpages could save a LOT of money (and trees) if they stopped printing those monstrous sized phone books. Everybody uses their cell phones or computers to look up phone numbers and addresses now. I guess maybe its about the ad revenue that keeps them going...


8 posted on 10/23/2013 5:19:01 AM PDT by jsanders2001
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase

Stupid! I always have paper charts as a backup.


9 posted on 10/23/2013 5:19:53 AM PDT by dinodino
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase

Save your old charts they are going to be worth a lot of money.


10 posted on 10/23/2013 5:21:51 AM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase
From the article:

Nowadays, most people instead use the on-demand maps printed by private shops, which are more up-to-date and accurate, Smith said.

Fedgov ought to be embarrassed, but it isn't.

11 posted on 10/23/2013 5:24:10 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ecce Crucem Domini, fugite partes adversae. Vicit Leo de Tribu Iuda, Radix David, Alleluia!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jsanders2001
In all the years I've received a phone book, I've used one pizza coupon .. one time ...

THAT paid for 50 years' worth of dead trees ?

12 posted on 10/23/2013 5:25:07 AM PDT by knarf (`)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: jsanders2001
Yellowpages could save a LOT of money (and trees) if they stopped printing those monstrous sized phone books. Everybody uses their cell phones or computers to look up phone numbers and addresses now. I guess maybe its about the ad revenue that keeps them going...

The Yellow Pages had an extortion racket before computers were ubiquitous. The phone company had a monopoly and weilded it to extort unconscionable rates on businesses, where exclusion for many businesses meant failure. A small tile company might have to pay out $6000 for a small one liner printed on newspaper stock. The end of the Yellow Pages ability to extort such payments is a Godsend to businesses, especially small businesses.

13 posted on 10/23/2013 5:32:15 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase

This is reasonable.

The feds still do “charting”, just don’t provide the paper. Private enterprise comes into play to use the federales chart data, to provide whatever the public wants to pay for: table apps, paper, books, etc.

Similar is occurring in aviation. I no longer buy the paper charts for flying... an ipad app is all I need, and is “legal” to fulfill chart access regs. An older paper version as backup would suffice in a pinch.

Aviation charts were getting VERY expensive, what with being current you had to purchase a new set every few months (depended on the type of chart... some were every 56 days).


14 posted on 10/23/2013 5:32:59 AM PDT by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase

They’re still going to offer print on demand charts and PDF charts.


15 posted on 10/23/2013 5:34:18 AM PDT by CJinVA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase
No problemo. Satellites and electronic devices will always be there, right?

Even if they are there, all GPS satellites & electronic navigation aids tell you is WHERE you are, not WHAT ELSE is where you are, i.e., reef, shoals, rocks, channels, wrecks, navigation buoys, etc. Charts of some type, either paper or electronic, are essential.

Once the data is collected to make an electronic chart, essentially all that you have to do is hit the PRINT button. It is the collection of the data that is complex and expensive. Printing that data on paper is relatively simple. The cost of that printing & subsequent distribution can be passed directly to the purchaser.

Of course, turning the whole process over to one or more private companies, say Garmin or Jeppesen (for Air Navigation Charts), might be the best thing to do. Or we could buy them from the British Admiralty... or the Chinese.

However, there is one problem left. Once the business of charting is privatized and NOAA shut down, what wll they do with NOAAs SWAT teams and their share of the 1.6 billion rounds of ammo?

16 posted on 10/23/2013 5:36:23 AM PDT by BwanaNdege (Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. J.F. Kennedy)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rktman

Not to mention dead reckoning !


17 posted on 10/23/2013 5:40:00 AM PDT by The Klingon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: jsanders2001

That and the cost of producing the books is rolled into the rate base.


18 posted on 10/23/2013 5:40:09 AM PDT by 31R1O
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: central_va
Save your old charts they are going to be worth a lot of money.

Perhaps as a historical artifact. Underwater topography changes all the time. Tides, currents, storms, and other factors change what the bottom looks like. Therefore, those old charts have limited usefulness. Might be better than nothing if your electronics fail.

19 posted on 10/23/2013 6:01:34 AM PDT by Lou L (Health "insurance" is NOT the same as health "care")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Mr. K

How does this save money. They don’t give away these charts for free.


20 posted on 10/23/2013 6:15:10 AM PDT by Venturer (Keep Obama and you aint seen nothing yet.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: jsanders2001

If you knew what they charge for an ad you would not need to ask that question.

The cost is outrageous, for an ad placed on a piece of paper so thin you could use it for TP.


21 posted on 10/23/2013 6:16:43 AM PDT by Venturer (Keep Obama and you aint seen nothing yet.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase

22 posted on 10/23/2013 6:21:07 AM PDT by JoeProBono (SOME IMAGES MAY BE DISTURBING VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED;-{)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rktman

“When the lights go out........... Sextant/protractor/compass. Just sayin’.”

The majority of 21st century offshore recreational boaters probably think a Sextant is some kind of marital device, a protractor is a medieval form of Viagra and a compass a novelty toy.


23 posted on 10/23/2013 7:23:38 AM PDT by Rebelbase (Tagline: (optional, printed after your name on post))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

Exactly.


24 posted on 10/23/2013 7:30:11 AM PDT by Mr. Lucky
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Venturer

> If you knew what they charge for an ad you would not need to ask that question.

The cost is outrageous, for an ad placed on a piece of paper so thin you could use it for TP.

I know they are thousands of dollars depending on the size.


25 posted on 10/23/2013 7:50:52 AM PDT by jsanders2001
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Cowboy Bob

It always amazes me that people make comments without reading the article.


26 posted on 10/23/2013 7:54:38 AM PDT by TexasGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

You must not be a supply and demand kind of person are you?

Do you say the same thing about top heart surgeon’s making a bazillion dollars? I mean they have the skills to save a life, they should do it for whatever their patient can afford right?


27 posted on 10/23/2013 9:43:25 AM PDT by Almondjoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: TexasGator
It always amazes me that people make comments without reading the article.

It amazes me, when they actually do read the article. BTW...Fire Muschamp!

28 posted on 10/23/2013 9:44:47 AM PDT by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy
Do you say the same thing about top heart surgeon’s making a bazillion dollars? I mean they have the skills to save a life, they should do it for whatever their patient can afford right?

Indeed I do say the same thing, but you are ignoring the artificial limitation in the market on the number of cardiovascular surgeons. What in the world makes you think that someone can simply charge whatever they want, without the consequence of other people offering more of the same thing? The number of doctors and hospitial beds are strictly limited by the government. Remove that limit and let them charge what they want. What do you have against individual freedom?

29 posted on 10/23/2013 12:02:54 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy

You do realize that the phone company was granted a monopoly right? There is nothing free and open about a government enforced monopoly.


30 posted on 10/23/2013 12:04:56 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: BwanaNdege

Good Luck.

31 posted on 10/23/2013 12:07:50 PM PDT by Rodamala
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase

BOY Deadliest catch captains going be pissed


32 posted on 10/23/2013 12:56:36 PM PDT by SevenofNine (We are Freepers, all your media bases belong to us ,resistance is futile)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

So you’re arguement is to have no rules at all? I mean we could have 20 telephone company’s in the same area. We could have telephone poles and wires hanging all over the place, probably couldn’t even see the sky there would be so many of them, and with doctors, I mean who needs all that education anyways? I say if you want to call yourself a doctor and do open heart surgery for 99.99 let’s do it. That will lower prices and increase competiton with no risk to consumers.


33 posted on 10/25/2013 7:44:18 AM PDT by Almondjoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy

Don’t look, but there are now dozens of telephone companies, and the sky is still visible. You might want to think before you talk.

Per the number of doctors, you illogically conclude that removing government restrictions on the number can only be done by removing current residency and board requirements. Does that even make sense to you?


34 posted on 10/25/2013 3:20:15 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy

Don’t look, but there are now dozens of telephone companies, and the sky is still visible. You might want to think before you talk.

Per the number of doctors, you illogically conclude that removing government restrictions on the number can only be done by removing current residency and board requirements. Does that even make sense to you?


35 posted on 10/25/2013 3:20:16 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

Actually you were referring to a telephone directory monopoly if you want to get technical and you are wrong on both fronts, first when a telephone monopoly existed the technology didn’t exist to have multiple hard wire companies in one area, the internet is what expanded that. Also, you complain about telephone companies raking people over the coals for ad rates but there was never a telephone book monopoly. 3rd party publishers existed for a long time before people flocked to the internet. You can’t fault a telephone company for charging high rates for ad’s when the people themselves choose to use the phone book from the company that provided their phone service.

I’ll stay away from the doctors since I know little to nothing about residency and board requirements.


36 posted on 10/26/2013 8:46:39 AM PDT by Almondjoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy

So having a monopoly isn’t a competitive game changer in your book? The yellow book rates should have been regulated just like the phone rates. Once a monopoly is given, it is incumbent upon regulators to regulate. The customers were paying the company to receive annual phone books, so every dollar of ad revenue was profit. All competitors would clearly be on different ground.


37 posted on 10/28/2013 11:15:30 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

I’m not sure you understand the phone book business at all. Any company at any time could have printed a book and sent it to everyone in an area, these competitors that did send a book did not charge people to have the book, they were published and delivered for free.


38 posted on 10/30/2013 7:56:36 AM PDT by Almondjoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy
I’m not sure you understand the phone book business at all. Any company at any time could have printed a book and sent it to everyone in an area, these competitors that did send a book did not charge people to have the book, they were published and delivered for free.

And who paid to print and distribute them? In the case of the phone company with the monopoly, it was the customers. In the business world, they call that an advantage. When it is the result of a government mandated monopoly, its called a racket.

39 posted on 10/30/2013 6:14:07 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

You just aren’t paying attention to what I’m saying. It can’t be a monopoly when you have competition as well as the ability for anyone to enter the market.


40 posted on 11/01/2013 7:28:43 AM PDT by Almondjoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy
You just aren’t paying attention to what I’m saying. It can’t be a monopoly when you have competition as well as the ability for anyone to enter the market.

Let's see how this works. I'll be given a monopoly to deliver newspapers to 500,000 houses in the city, and the people who live in those houses must pay a rate that covers my expense of printing and delivering the papers. I can even roll any added costs for additional space in under that same rate.

Now I go to businesses to sell advertising in those papers. What is my overhead to including their ads? Just about zero, so if I sell $20,000 in ads for Sunday, I'll make right abut $20,000.

How about the competition? What is their overhead to print and hand deliver the same amount of advertising to those 500,000 houses? Its certainly more than $0.04 per house, which means they'll lose money.

Are other parties prohibited from entering the market by law? No. Are they prohibited from entering by simple mathmatics? Yes.

If that doesn't make sense to you, imagine I'm being given Snickers bars for free and selling them for 50 cents each. Are you free to go buy some Snickers bars at 50 cents each and compete with me?

41 posted on 11/01/2013 11:08:45 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: BwanaNdege

They’ll sell/give it to AQ or the muzzie brotherhood...if they haven’t already.


42 posted on 11/01/2013 11:29:18 AM PDT by Let's Roll (Save the world's best healthcare - REPEAL, DEFUND Obamacare!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Let's Roll

The ammo I mean.


43 posted on 11/01/2013 11:32:05 AM PDT by Let's Roll (Save the world's best healthcare - REPEAL, DEFUND Obamacare!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

You are so involved in being right you can’t seem to read what I’m saying.

Telephone books never had a monopoly because anyone could print a book and mail it out to anyone in the region, and companies did at no cost to the consumer!

If you are so correct that this barrier to entry was so high nobody would enter then why would they enter? Because companies did. You also assume companies rolled the cost of books into their rate(you don’t know that) in fact many major companies are compromised of divisions that operate purely on their own. Even if you were correct in stating that they rolled the costs of the books into their rate, companies like Yellow Book found it plenty lucrative to publish a 2nd rate book and make money off of it. Your premise is flawed.


44 posted on 11/02/2013 8:39:35 AM PDT by Almondjoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy

Look friend, if you can’t understand that a guarnteed monopoly on phone service, with rates that covered the printing of phone books, gave an insurmountable advantage to the phone company, then I’m almost at a loss to help you. If you don’t think you are paying for that printing of that phone book that lands on your front door via your rates, then again, I can’t help you.

Why did other companies enter? Because, as I pointed out initially, the phone company had so exceeded any reasonable ad rate that there was some room for margin; however, that margin was always thin compared to the phone company, which made them uncompetitive.

1. The cost of the phone company printing the books and distributing them was paid for by the customer. That is a huge cost. The competition had to take that cost out of profits.

2. The phone company had a system by which new advertising customers had to immediately register with them. The competition had to go and look for clients. Not cheap.

3. A business had a choice of paying the phone company an outrageous amount for advertising, paying less to a competitor that never had any chance of suceeding, or paying both. It turns out that extortion works, when its not a bluff.

I’m not sure what business you’re in, but you wouldn’t be in it for long if the government gave your competitor the type of advantage that the phone company had with the yellow pages.


45 posted on 11/02/2013 10:20:47 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

Of course they had the advantage, I never said they didn’t have an advantage, they have an advantage like google has an advantage or verizon has an advantage or even microsoft has an advantage.

Your point was that the phone company had a monopoly, they didn’t in regards to phone books and they certainly didn’t in terms of advertising. In order to build a business you didn’t have to have an ad in the phone book, in fact many people built a business simply off of word of mouth, or maybe they used billboards or radio or tv.

Your point is it’s extortion which is worse a lie and at best naive. The advertising market in any city was simply run off of supply and demand like anything. If people decided to use a 3rd party publisher balking at their own telephone company 3rd party rates would have been driven higher.

So point by point.

1st the monopolies were closing looked at for their phone rates just like utility companies are. Publishing phone books was a cost like any other that was viewed independently of phone lines themselves.

2nd Just because a line was activated at the company didn’t give them a distinct advantage on advertising because the company didn’t have to pay the rates they were asking for. If a new business felt like they HAD to advertise in order to bring in customers they had many media types are their disposal. Also, all companies including the home phone company had outside reps that would go and visit new businesses, an expense shared by all.

3rd Now you are just casting stones, Yellow book was a successful company all on it’s own, many phone companies did overlap for example Verizon overlapped with Qwest(Centurylink) to compete for the same area. A 3rd party publisher didn’t have to be a small company, in fact some were large phone companies that reached out beyond their phone subscriber base. The home base phone book was always the most popular but not the only one used.


46 posted on 11/02/2013 7:04:34 PM PDT by Almondjoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy

Whatever. Seriously, you are being obstinate or you simply cannot understand simple math. I give up. You will never get it, not in a million years, not with pictures, not with charts, I would sooner get a raccoon to do calculus.

Cash cow monopolies in no way effect the competitive advantage of closely tied business concerns in your world and nothing is ever going to penetrate that world.


47 posted on 11/02/2013 8:05:02 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: SampleMan

Your point wasn’t a competitive advantage, if it was you would of already read that I conceded that point to you because I never disagreed to you.

You said the phone company extorted money based not on a competitive advantage but an absolute monopoly. Which based on your reaction you now realized I ripped to shreds.


48 posted on 11/05/2013 8:46:13 AM PST by Almondjoy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Almondjoy
Your point wasn’t a competitive advantage, if it was you would of already read that I conceded that point to you because I never disagreed to you.

Indeed that was my point. The monopoly on phone service, which was absolutely tied to phone directory distribution, provided what was an effective monopoly on business directory advertising. When a company is handed an enormous competitive advantage, the effect is the same as an exclusionary monopoly.

You said the phone company extorted money based not on a competitive advantage but an absolute monopoly. Which based on your reaction you now realized I ripped to shreds.

So that is the face saving line you've chosen to fall back on? Weak, but whatever.

49 posted on 11/05/2013 11:48:51 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson