Is lightspeed really a limit?

The Register ^ | 10 October 2012 | Richard Chirgwin

[ShadowAce]

We don’t (yet) have any way to test this, but University of Adelaide applied mathematicians are suggesting that an extended version of Einstein’s Theory of Special Relativity also holds true for velocities beyond lightspeed.

One of the main predictions of Special Relativity is that the speed of light is treated as an absolute cosmic speed limit, the line which can never be crossed; and even the notorious “faster-than-light neutrino” incident in 2011 has left the theory intact as one of the most robust in physics.

However, during the speculation that surrounded the neutrino discussion last year¹, the University of Adelaide’s Professor Jim Hill and Dr Barry Cox considered the question of how the mathematical contradictions posed by a faster-than-light particle could be aligned with Special Relativity.

Their solution, which Professor Hill discussed with The Register,² rested on ignoring the speed of light’s status as an absolute limit, and instead, using the information where the relative velocity of two observers is infinite.³.

Outside the box: Einstein's Special Relativity works inside the smallest square.

The University of Adelaide researchers have extended the mathematics

to a world beyond Einstein's limit. Image provided by Professor Jim Hill

The surprising outcome: with just two assumptions, an extended version of the mathematics for Einstein's special relativity works just as well above the speed of light as below.

“Relativity is about frames of reference,” Professor Hill explained to The Register. That is, observers with different velocities see the same event from different frames of reference.

“Einstein started working from information where the relative velocity is zero – what we knew about, such as rest mass, kinetic energy and so on – and then extrapolated what is known in the Newtonian world for velocities lower than c.

“Our thinking was: how do we make use of the essential essence of Einstein’s theory for velocities above c?”

Mathematically, what the mathematicians assumed is that for infinite relative velocity, there is a fixed relationship between the velocities of the two observers: where u is the first observer’s velocity, v is the second, the product of the two velocities is always c².

“What we have is an equivalent theory [to Special Relativity] that applies for velocities beyond the speed of light. That theory is different from Special Relativity, but it has many of the same characteristics.

And readers with an interest in either physics or maths will be delighted with the vital assumptions: there has to be one, and only one, speed of light; and in all cases, a mathematical singularity occurs at the speed of light.

“If you believe what we’ve done,” Professor Hill said, “there can only be one speed of light in a universe. If there was a second speed of light, our mathematics wouldn’t work. If there is a second singularity [the one that occurs at the speed of light in Special Relativity – The Register] it wouldn’t work.

“This theory and method of solution is dependent on assuming that there is only one speed of light in any universe.”

To get from the theory to any practical test is another matter entirely, and Professor Hill freely admits he doesn’t know how that might be achieved (although The Register notes that the world took half a century to get from the maths of emission of radiation to the laser). He hopes, however, that a test can be devised.

“If you really don’t believe that faster-than-light is possible, then humans will be limited forever,” he said.

Einstein’s special relativity beyond the speed of light has been published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society. ®

[Alamo-Girl]

Perhaps the presence of the 'point/moment' from God in our human spirit is the 'why' or 'how' our souls seems to some extent 'sense' the greater universe our bodily senses are not fashioned to perceive? I wonder, is that why God instructed 'be still, and know that I AM God' to the Prophet?

Beautiful observation, dear MHGinTN, thank you!

This may be related to the "Universal Now" that TXnMA, betty boop and I have been discussing for quite a while. TXnMA is working on a way to visualize the concept.

[Alamo-Girl]

Aha, so that's where you've been, taking care of your elderly aunts! Thank God you are there for them! And may He bless them in their twilight time here on earth.

betty boop and I have both been very busy with elder-care, too.

In my case, it's two octogenarian spinster cousins. One is in a nursing home, the other is still living at home on the other side of the State - but probably not much longer. She is becoming very feeble.

It is a wonderful blessing to care for the aging. But it doesn't leave a lot of time for the other things.

Would you and A-G, perchance, be willing to consider the idea that six days experienced in "the 'non-4D realm' of Wesson's 5D/2T" might be experienced in the '4D realm' as, say, 14 billion years? '-)

Certainly, though even without a fifth dimension, inflationary theory/relativity would lead to the same conclusion.

[TXnMA]

I've been doing a lot of pondering on (for want of a better term) "the Heavenly Realm" -- specifically the "wherewhen" of it.

I agree that relativity can resolve the apparent disparity in durations, but I am also more and more convinced that God has a "place" that connects with this created universe of His in a way that facilitates his omnipresence and omniscience.

To me, it is quite logical that a basic intersection of the two "domains" may be defined by the Creation event. If so, we have a logical explanation of how His reference frame relates to ours and what defines the difference in our "4D" and his realm's other "dimensions"... And explains why relativity so elegantly handles that famous "disparity"!

IOW, I think we may be "iterating in on" an understanding of why Creation took six of His days -- and not seventeen, for instance...

We know He has a "place" for us, and that is where we will be with Him. Has this thread been talking about that same subject?

~~~~~~

Sorry -- my mind is running far faster and broader than I can type -- so, I'm ... Heading out to see if I can catch sight of a few early Orionid meteors. ("Leftovers" from Halley's last close pass.) '-} (The "peak" is supposed to be about this time tomorrow.)

Looking forward with great anticipation to being "there" with Him!

TXnMA

P.S. "Transfiguration" -- "Phase change" -- "Right turn, Clyde"... '-)

[Petruchio]

I tend to look at it in a simpler form, as in God is “above” time.

Picture a Globe in your mind. Time is marching happily along following the equator. God, sitting on His Throne at the North Pole. At any given instant He can see every moment in our history, all in the present in His view. Just as we can trace multiple lines of longitude on a globe at the same time. In God’s eye, the past - present - future are all “now” to Him.

Oh, while I am thinking about it, I think at some point we will exceed the speed of light. What I wonder is when that happens, who is gonna pay the speeding ticket? [grin]

[Alamo-Girl]

I agree that relativity can resolve the apparent disparity in durations, but I am also more and more convinced that God has a "place" that connects with this created universe of His in a way that facilitates his omnipresence and omniscience.

To me, it is quite logical that a basic intersection of the two "domains" may be defined by the Creation event. If so, we have a logical explanation of how His reference frame relates to ours and what defines the difference in our "4D" and his realm's other "dimensions"... And explains why relativity so elegantly handles that famous "disparity"!

So very true, dear brother in Christ, absolutely splendid.

Go for it!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your visualization of God's "now" dear brother in Christ!

Oh, while I am thinking about it, I think at some point we will exceed the speed of light.

Some Jewish mystics believe the firmament is not geometric, i.e. here/earth versus there/heaven. Rather, they believe the firmament is a boundary such as the speed of light, that the "here" is "there" and vice versa.

Sound and light - like our very existence in Wesson's article linked above - are waves. And according to Wesson's article, the oscillating wave (our existence) continues after death, which is to say we merely experience a phase shift when we physically die.

Indeed, space/time and wave fluctuation are like hand-in-glove. From a previous post of mine:

Mathematically, the dimension of a space is the minimum number of coordinates (axes) necessary to identify a point within the space. A space of zero dimensions is a point; one dimension, a line, two dimensions, a plane; three, a cube, etc. That is the geometry of it. In zero dimensions, the mathematical point is indivisible.

It is not nothing. It is a spatial point. A singularity is not nothing.

In ex nihilo Creation (beginning of space/time) - the dimensions are not merely zero, they are null, dimensions do not exist at all. There is no space and no time. Period.

There is no mathematical point, no volume, no content, no scalar quantities. Ex nihilo doesn’t exist in relationship to anything else; there is no thing.

In an existing physical space, each point (e.g. particle) can be parameterized by a quantity such as mass. The parameter (e.g. a specific quantity within the range of possible quantities) is in effect another descriptor or quasi-dimension that uniquely identifies the point within the space.

Moreover, if the quantity of the parameter changes for a point, then a time dimension is invoked. For example, at one moment the point value is “0” and the next it is “1”.

Wave propagation (e.g. big bang, inflation) cannot occur in null dimensions nor can it occur in zero spatial dimensions, a mathematical point; a dimension of time is required for any fluctuation in a parameter value at a point.

Moreover, wave propagation must also have a spatial/temporal relation from cause point to effect point, i.e. physical causation.

For instance “0” at point n^t causes “1” at point n+1^t+1 which causes "0" at point n+1^t+2 etc..

Obviously, physical wave propagation (e.g. big bang/inflationary model) cannot precede space/time and physical causality. Again,

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Both space and time are required for physical causation.

Likewise, some Jewish mystics offer an insight that I find helpful in expressing that God is the Creator of "all that there is" including space, time and causation. More specifically, they use the term Ayn Sof to refer to Him as the Creator. The term literally means "no thing" and conveys the points that He is not subject to His own Creation and moreover, that any word we mere mortals would use to describe Him (e.g. time, space, causation) limits our ability to know Who He IS to the term that we used.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:8

To God be the glory!.

[TXnMA]

I tend to look at it in a simpler form, as in God is “above” time.

Picture a Globe in your mind. Time is marching happily along following the equator. God, sitting on His Throne at the North Pole. At any given instant He can see every moment in our history, all in the present in His view. Just as we can trace multiple lines of longitude on a globe at the same time. In God’s eye, the past - present - future are all “now” to Him.

~~~~~~~

A-G & bb: It appears that, in Petruchio, we have another participant in our discussions of God's "Universal Now"... :-)

~~~~~~~

FWIW, APOD has just published a new, "deeper" iteration of the "Hubble Deep Field" image, called "the Hubble Extreme Deep Field". It is a longer exposure (and "sees farther") than, even the "Hubble Ultra Deep Field"!

(Reduced size for posting on FR.) To experience the image in its 'full glory', go the APOD page for 14 OCT 2012, then click on the image to open it at full resolution, then blow it up and "wander around that section of space". Trust me, the experience is awesome -- and humbling...

The HST was set to "stare" at a "spot" in space so small that the image only includes two of the "local" stars in our "Milky Way" galaxy. (Sorta like peering through a tiny "soda straw"...) Aside from those two stars, every other object in that image is a complete, unimaginably huge, billions of stars -- GALAXY! ...and the view is, essentially the same -- regardless of the direction in which we point our "soda straw"!

Of course, we are incapable of perceiving "reality": because our data only arrive at the speed of light, we see each of those galaxies as it was when the photons we see departed it. For a galaxy a thousand light years ago, we see it as (and where) it was in 1012AD.

Only God (looking from His "extra-4D vantage point") can see His entire created universe as it actually is "right NOW". (the "Universal NOW").

So, Petruchio we share the same concept of God's "beyond time" omniscience!

I can't help but wonder if, when we are with Him "Where" He is, we will share that "Universal NOW" viewing capability...

~~~~~~

Wow! Talk about "Hope and Change"...!!! :-)

[Petruchio]

I tried to explain this once before here. Back in 2002 I had a heart attack while on FR. It took 4 days before someone was able to post a Prayer thread on FR. Yet I felt the effects of those Prayers all the way back to the ambulance ride.

Because God is "above" time, the Prayers He heard on the 16th He acted on back on the 11th, by taking the heart attack and adding it to all the other infirmities He placed on/in Christ during the Crucifixion. In essence my heart attack died with Christ 2000 years ago. All of those points in time are in the now to God.

TXnMA said "I can't help but wonder if, when we are with Him "Where" He is, we will share that "Universal NOW" viewing capability... "

I think so. Obviously, because of my Prayer thread, I have been thinking about death a lot lately. During our time here on Earth, our true essence is in effect held captive within this body. Once free of this body, we are also free from the limitations placed on creation. Death is nothing more than Graduating from Time into Eternity. The very definition of eternity is timelessness. My only hope is that God finds me worthy to remain in His Presence.

I tend to look at things simply. In the Bible God refers to us as sheep. Why? Because sheep are dumb. And compared to God, we are very very dumb. LOL! It says in the Bible that God Spoke Creation into existence. All of creation is made of atoms, aka wee bits of pure energy separated from each other by measurable distances of nothing. God Spoke (provided the energy) that powers Creation. So, creation itself is a part of God.

[betty boop]

Some Jewish mystics believe the firmament is not geometric, i.e. here/earth versus there/heaven. Rather, they believe the firmament is a boundary such as the speed of light, that the "here" is "there" and vice versa.

It's interesting how such ancient ideas seem to be topical nowadays in the natural sciences. (Or one is to suppose so, waiting for the scientists to get seriously engaged with such problems.)

Nowadays it is generally accepted in the community of physical scientists that the Universe (considered under the aspect of a single, integrated, total system) is at once finite, yet unbounded. Which seems at first approach to be illogical: For if something is finite, how can it be "unbounded?" The very idea of finitude seems to imply the existence of a boundary somewhere.

This paradox can be resolved (it seems to me) according to the categories of Platonic reasoning. The boundary cannot be detected from within 4D spacetime reality by means of human sense perception. Human sense perception was "designed" to function in the 4D world. Perceptions of higher dimensions do not arise in sense; they arrive in mind, in human imagination.

Plato reasoned that the God of the Cosmos (of the entire created order) was the "Unknown God," BEYOND the Cosmos. He despised the "known gods" of his day — the Olympians — as perpetrators of bad moral example for humankind. All the Olympians seemed to want to do was fight among themselves, for vainglory, pre-eminence, dominance, using human beings as tools, or pawns, or sacrifices as need be, in their quarrels with each other. Nothing makes this more clear than Homer's Iliad, possibly the single most unremittently blood-thirsty work of world literary art to this day.

We know from The Republic that Plato did not hold the great Greek poets in high regard [e.g., Hesoid, Homer], because they transmitted such stories about inept, unprincipled, dissolute gods to man. Simply put, Plato did not regard such "gods" as decent role models for man.

The God that Plato encountered in his contemplation was an Unknown (and Unknowable, given the limitations of the human mind) God utterly "Beyond" the Cosmos of His making.

In saying that such a God was utterly "Beyond," Plato indicated that this "Beyond" was not contained within the 4D block of normal human awareness and experience. It seems to me he strongly suggests that this God is "Beyond" in the sense that the human mind has no categories by which such a "Beyond" can be imagined, let alone understood, on the basis of purely physical observational experience.

But not to worry! Plato seems also to reject the idea of death as an "endpoint." For he writes that death is merely "the separation of the body and the soul. Nothing more." Elsewhere he had already indicated his belief in the immortality of the soul. Only the physical body perishes at death, nothing more. At the point of physical death (which for Plato is decidedly not an "end-point"), the essential man — the soul — undergoes a "phase change." So does the physical body: It falls into the clutches of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, thus falling into a corresponding "phase change."

But it seems to me the point Plato is making is that the Second Law does not, and cannot, reach to, or affect, the immortal soul, which goes on eternally in some fashion both during its incarnate existence and after it has shed the mortal "bodily coil."

All this, some four hundred years before the Incarnation of Christ, the fulfillment of Plato's own vision long after his own time.

Justin Martyr noticed this; as evidently, so did Augustine....

Likewise, the idea of the Eternal Now corresponds to Plato's God of the Beyond — in the sense that there is no way for the human mind, cultivated and schooled in 4D experience, to contact let alone verify conditions appertaining to dimensions beyond the three of space and one of time.

This is a human limitation. God is not subject to it. Certainly it seems to me that Socrates' last words in The Apology testify to this understanding.

Socrates had been charged with the crime of contributing to the delinquency of Athenian youth by disparaging the state gods. The charge was a capital crime, if proven by a jury of 500 of his peers — fellow Athenians. With a 27-vote plurality, this jury convicted Socrates as charged. But they gave Socrates an out: He could accept permanent exile from his beloved Athens; or subject himself to state execution by taking the poison, Hemlock.

Socrates chose the latter. His last words to the jury that convicted him of death remain to this day as a great inspiration to me:

The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our ways — I to die, and you to live. Which is better God only knows. — B. Jowett, tr.

Have run on for so long by now, must close for now.

Thank you so very much, dearest sister in Christ, for your absolutely superlative essay-post! Just wonderful....

[Petruchio]

"I can't help but wonder if, when we are with Him "Where" He is,... "

I am sorry, but this is still bugging me. Because we are right now with God where He is. I tried rather poorly above to explain. Will try again.

Most of what we know of God is from the Bible. We accept the Bible as the "Word of God". To my limited understanding there are a very few things that God is unable to do. Two that come to mind are sin and lie. In the Bible it says God is in all of Creation. With one glaring exception... Hell. That is what makes Hell, well hell. It's not the fire, or Brimstone, nor the torment of the fires of Gehenna. It is the ONLY place in all of Creation where God's Presence is not present. Those who deny God in life are granted just that in death. Destined to be in the only place in creation where God is not present, Hell.

Granted, sometimes it seems like this is hell, but it is not. 0bama has tried to transform the U.S. into hell but failed.

[Alamo-Girl]

Glorious! Thank you so very much for sharing that deep field picture, dear brother in Christ!

I see something like this, amazed at the enormity of it all, and then I recall that our minds cannot even conceive of what God has prepared for us.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. - I Cor 2:9

What He has prepared is even greater than this.

Praise God!!!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for your splendid essay-post, dearest sister in Christ!

I truly believe Plato's insights were a gift from God. Justin Martyr spoke of them that way, noting his philosophy was unlike any of the other schools and observing some prophetic Christian insights.

The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our ways — I to die, and you to live. Which is better God only knows. — B. Jowett, tr.

Socrates' last words bring Paul's dilemma to mind:

For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.

But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you. - Phl 1:21-24

I saw that same choosing in my mother. She had the gift of faith. We Christians all have the grace of faith but her's was something to behold.

Whenever she laid a burden down before the Lord she didn't picked it up again. It was a "done deal." She trusted God with whatever she laid down which sounds easy enough but for most of us I suspect (certainly for me) we keep picking it back up again, worrying about it and then having to pray and lay it down all over again. Jeepers.

Many miracles happened in my mother's life as you might imagine.

Truly, her faith was so strong I really wondered whether she would ever get sick enough to die physically. But the day she died, she placed the "lifeline" my brother got her which she had never used on the coffee table. As I looked at her I could see in her eyes that she wanted to wrap it up and was going home. And she did.

Ironically, the only time she used the "lifeline" was to not use it.

God's Name is I AM.

[betty boop]

Petruchio: I tend to look at it in a simpler form, as in God is “above” time.

Picture a Globe in your mind. Time is marching happily along following the equator. God, sitting on His Throne at the North Pole. At any given instant He can see every moment in our history, all in the present in His view. Just as we can trace multiple lines of longitude on a globe at the same time. In God’s eye, the past – present – future are all “now” to Him.

~~~~~~~

TxnMA: A-G & bb: It appears that, in Petruchio, we have another participant in our discussions of God’s “Universal Now”... :-)

Indeed, dear brother in Christ! Definitely Petruchio seems interested in the relativistic aspects of the “time problem….” Still I doubt that his observer sitting on a throne at the North Pole is God. God doesn’t have to sit at the North Pole to know what He knows, from Eternity. This observer merely seems to have a more favorable vantage point of observation than the observer at the equator, relativistically speaking, in regard to answering a particular question.

We have been speaking of the “Eternal Now,” and how it can be conceived by the human mind. I have some impressions, but cannot construct a coherent description. Indeed, this may be entirely beyond my powers.

However, the impressions (clues?):

(1) We have to ask what “eternity” is. Traditionally, eternity has been regarded as synonymous with timelessness. Yet as Wolfhart Pannenberg has pointed out, “If eternity means the divine mode of being, then it is directly concerned with the question of how the reality of God is related to the spatio-temporal universe.” The difficulty of the problem is that God is not “in” time, making Him absolutely immune to direct observation by time-bound human beings.

If we say that eternity means “timelessness,” then its relation to the “time” we humans experience would appear to be a negative, mutually-exclusive one. This point is relevant for eschatology: “[T]he Christian hope for resurrection … does not aim at a completely different life replacing the present one. Rather, it aims at a transformation of this present life to let it participate in the divine glory. Salvation cannot mean pure negation and annihilation of this present life, of this creation of God. Therefore in a Christian perspective time and eternity must have some positive relation. This is also implied in the doctrine of the incarnation, since that means a togetherness of the human and the divine in the person and life of Jesus Christ.”

(2) The normal time sense recognized by human beings can be described as the irreversible series of “punctiliar” moments moving linearly, “horizontally,” from past to present to future. In this model, the future is effectively determined by moments in the past.

Certainly God, one of whose divine attributes is Eternity, does not experience “time” in this way.

As a very great poet, T. S. Eliot put it, “Man lives at the intersection of time and timelessness [eternity].”

To me, the perfect symbol of this is the Holy Cross on which our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified…. The horizontal beam stands for the human conception of time as consisting of serial, irreversible moments, with all natural causation arising from the past; the vertical beam stands for the human extension unto the Eternal Now in this life, which draws all unto itself from the future….

It has been suggested that the Eternal Now is the sounding together of all the spatio-temporal moments that ever have or ever could occur, as the single instantaneous “sounding” of the “all that there is,” as in, for instance, a symphony orchestra…. This is what God knows, from “where” He IS — “outside” of Time and Space altogether.

(3) It might be useful to give a thought to what is meant by “the Creation.” The Holy Bible tells us the Creation was made “in the Beginning.” Instantly I suppose many readers of the Holy Book will refer to their own “normal” time sense, and conclude that the Creation was a one-time, one-off, unrepeatable event.

But what if the true meaning of the Creation is that it is a continuous process unfolding at every moment of time, as human beings experience time?

That is to say, the Creation was not an “event.” It is a process that continues, eternally.

There may be some support from the maths for this view. Pannenberg points to the recent work of a German mathematician, Gunter Ewald of the University of Bochum. Ewald’s theory is based “on the notion of a field, just as the theory of relativity conceives of the spatiotemporal universe as a single field.”

“According to Ewald, this notion can be expanded to include complex numbers [jeepers, we’ve already been there recently!]. Since in the level of complex numbers no linear sequence occurs, the transition from complex numbers to real numbers can be interpreted as a transition into spatiotemporal existence. Generally the field of complex numbers in its relation to real numbers can provide a model of the relation of eternity to spatiotemporal events.” [Itals added.]

Something for afficianados of number theory to contemplate further!

Anyhoot, what this all boils down to, to me: I’m looking for the “hypersurface” of mathematics, which to the physicist probably translates as a “field,” that from a transcendent position WRT the immanent Creation, “informs” and “guides” the Creation in its spatiotemporal unfoldment — but which never positively “determines” it.

Isaac Newton had a helpful name for this field: He called it sensorium Dei. I gather he imagined this as the very interface of divine eternity and the Creator's time-bound (as humans see it) Creation; i.e., as God's relation to the natural world of finite human experience.

Or so it seems to me. Just some thoughts, FWTW.

Thank you so very much, dear TxnMA, for your splendid essay/post — and for the link to the glorious celestial display!

[TXnMA]

Insight gained from your testimony in this thread -- applied in your prayer thread....

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ!

If we say that eternity means “timelessness,” then its relation to the “time” we humans experience would appear to be a negative, mutually-exclusive one.

They may merely have an appearance of being mutually exclusive as in the never-ending debate concerning predestination (prophecy) versus free will (commandment.) Since time is part of the Creation and not a restriction on the Creator of it, effects may appear to us 4D creatures as being caused by prior events when it may be the other way around, e.g. effect>cause instead of cause>effect.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. - Rev 13:8

Since a field such as gravity or electromagnetism occurs at all points in space/time whereas a hypersurface is like a dynamic plane in space/time (like a sheet blowing in the wind or gnarled into a form) - I am inclined to say that Newton's sensorium Dei would be more field-like whereas the life of any particular creature would be more like a hypersurface.

[MHGinTN]

Eternity is a temporal term (to our human minds). So whatever way of defining eternity, it will of necessity include the notion of assuming dimension Time to exist. Since dimension Time came into being at or shortly thereafter the creation moment began, our task is to comprehend how dimension Time may embrace greater than linear reality ... moment by moment construction of the past is a linear nature, whereas present is a planar nature composed of all the 'arriving' moments on an near infinite number of timelines.

From the backside of this planar present eternity would appear as a plane, but from the otherside of the planar present eternity would appear as a near infinite number of points (moments) each able to extend 'linearly' into a 'nother' planar present of '1/2 infinite directions'. [Of course, if God can move to any linear past moment, then the number of theoretical directions possible from any point/moment is infinite rather than 1/2 'nfinite. I happen to believe that from God's 'position' all moments in any temporal configuration are available to His 'AM', thus He stepped into time 'after' the cross from our perspective but in the present of Daniel, for instance.]

On the one hand, Eternity must be real within the context of the creation, thus God remains greater than eternity because God created the 'bubble' within which eternity may be an temporal expression. On the other hand, perhaps eternity is not even a temporal expression, but we humans have conceived of it that way. In such a context, perhaps God divided eternity in order to create the expression of dimension time for our existence. [This would imply that at the moment time came to exist, 1/2 infinite number of directions was the starting expression of temporal reality as time allowed events to occur.]

[Alamo-Girl]

Outstanding insights, dear MHGinTN, thank you!

Eternity is a temporal term (to our human minds).

SO very true.

I happen to believe that from God's 'position' all moments in any temporal configuration are available to His 'AM', thus He stepped into time 'after' the cross from our perspective but in the present of Daniel, for instance.]

Indeed, position or spatial coordinates - like temporal coordinates - are not a restriction on the Creator of them.

[betty boop]

They may merely have an appearance of being mutually exclusive as in the never-ending debate concerning predestination (prophecy) versus free will (commandment.)

Indeed, "appearance" is the operative word here. Perhaps predestination vs. free will are more like complementarities than they are mutually-exclusive concepts.

Yet, we see only as if through a glass darkly, and so we do not logically know how to reconcile them. Also we do not know how to reconcile the time we physically experience as past–present–future, with the out-of-time Eternal Now that we sometimes fleetingly experience as the Gift of the Holy Spirit in our interior life.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. — I Corinthians: 8–13

Here Saint Paul points to what is perhaps the greatest mystery of all for the human mind to grasp and try to fathom: That the very foundation of "all that there is" is divine love, which is the Eternal Now....

From the point of view of the imago Dei (we humans), this means to love God with one's whole heart and soul and mind and strength, and one's neighbor as one's Self.

Not very "scientific!!!" But then, this just goes to show the limitation inherent in science. IMHO FWIW

Dearest sister, you raised some really dicey issues in your last, re: "causation." You wrote: "... effects may appear to us 4D creatures as being caused by prior events when it may be the other way around, e.g. effect>cause instead of cause>effect."

I can see what you mean. We're so inured to our sense of the passage of irreversible linear time that we simply cannot conceive of a cause coming from "the future." How can a future cause cause anything in the present?

And yet, how can any organic function of a living being be understood except as the effect (fulfillment) of a "future" cause? Why did the living being "choose" this particular end, or purpose, with respect to a necessary biological function (e.g., respiration, metabolism, cell repair, etc.)? Why not just pick another end, or purpose? But of course, had it chosen another, it would be highly unlikely to secure the aim of the indicated function....

I agree with your observation that Newton's sensorium Dei denotes a "field." What can we say about fields? One, they are "universal." Two, they are "immanent," or IN spacetime. Three, they may signify some sort of interface between the finite and infinite, between the world of Creation and the Creator. What is for sure is that GOD is not subject in any way, shape, or form to any spacetime field: He Who created the field cannot ever be "reduced" to it in principle.

You added, "the life of any particular creature would be more like a hypersurface." Yikes! This "particular creature" would be a waveform responsive to a hypersurface (mathematically universal, intangible); whereas in the Newtonian "model" of the sensorium Dei, it would perhaps function as a particle....

Fundamental complementarities, here.

Must go think about that some more. :^)

Thank you ever so much Alamo-Girl, my, dearest sister in Christ, for your as-ever outstanding and thought-provoking essay/post!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for that beautiful Scripture, dearest sister in Christ, and as always your wonderful insights!

Perhaps predestination vs. free will are more like complementarities than they are mutually-exclusive concepts.

I very strongly agree with your assessment!

And yet, how can any organic function of a living being be understood except as the effect (fulfillment) of a "future" cause?

Again, I very strongly agree. Indeed, it is tongue-twisting to try to speak of biological functions without using the word "purpose" as many try to do to avoid speaking of "final cause."

Your example of repair functions is particularly strong when we look at the molecular level. Put another way, living systems developed repair capability before the need could have arisen. It is a temporal anomaly.

Concerning my reference to our existence as a hypersurface, I was thinking in terms of time as volumetric in MHGinTN's lingo.

And I was visualizing from Tegmark's article on the Level IV Parallel universe where he said the bird would see a frog as a "tangle of spaghetti." His observation reminds of the Calabi-Yau Manifold (hypersurface)

That Calabi-Yau gnarled hypersurface is popular in string theory but also many apply in expanded extra dimension theories.

Essentially, I'm thinking that our existence from God's perspective spans over past-present-future, the paths we took on our worldline (linear) and the ones we could have taken had we chosen differently (hyperplane). I realize this is a bit Everett (multi-world) but I couldn't resist ... LOLOL!

Also, I found a related article you might enjoy: A Historical Perspective on the Topology and Physics of Hyperspace