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German court rules circumcision is 'bodily harm'
BBC ^ | June 26, 2012

Posted on 06/27/2012 5:49:48 AM PDT by NCjim

A court in Germany has ruled that circumcising young boys for religious reasons amounts to bodily harm.

In a decision that has caused outrage among Jewish and Muslim groups, the court said that a child's right to physical integrity trumps religious and parental rights.

The case involved a doctor who carried out a circumcision on a four year-old that led to medical complications.

Thousands of Muslim and Jewish boys are circumcised in Germany every year.

Although male circumcision - unlike female circumcision - is not illegal in Germany, the court's judgement said the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents".

Circumcision, it decided, contravenes "interests of the child to decide later in life on his religious beliefs".

(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bodilyharm; circumcision; genitalmutilation
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1 posted on 06/27/2012 5:49:52 AM PDT by NCjim
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To: NCjim

If ‘bodily harm’ is illegal, then abortion is also illegal in Germany now?

No I guess not.


2 posted on 06/27/2012 5:51:14 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: agere_contra
Abortion is a "medical procedure" to remove tissue from a woman's womb. It's murder of the baby fetus, but then, murder is acceptable in MANY countries.

China has done SO MANY girl abortions (one baby policy) that they now have an entire generation of men who canNOT find a woman to marry...not enough female fetuses were allowed to become women. These men are officially called the "Bare Branches."

India aborts girl fetuses too, but since they can have all the babies they want, the girl fetuses aren't aborted until after the couple has had 10 girl babies and WANT, please, a boy baby. It's still murder, but they don't automatically abort female fetuses.

3 posted on 06/27/2012 5:56:35 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: NCjim

Which court? Municipal? Kreis? State? Federal? The article doesn’t say.


4 posted on 06/27/2012 5:57:54 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: NCjim

Female circumcision clitoridectomy has been part of some of the Egyptian culture for some time. It’s as horrible as male circumcision, imho. It might have been a good thing, health-wise, at one time but it’s not necessary now for health. MY opinion only on all circumcision. Ick.


5 posted on 06/27/2012 6:01:00 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: NCjim

This is just the tip of the problem.

Male circumcision does have some health benefits (reduction of penile cancer, I believe). There’s no justification for female circumcision, though. Maybe in the modern unisex world of one fits all, the judge is commingling the two procedures.


6 posted on 06/27/2012 6:11:49 AM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: NCjim
The irony is that there are clear positive health reasons for doing this, not just religious.

I was born in a Jewish hospital (parents were BOTH Christians) and am glad for it.

This sounds suspicious.

7 posted on 06/27/2012 6:12:10 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: cloudmountain

You are disgusting. THere’s no comparison between female and male circumcision.


8 posted on 06/27/2012 6:12:10 AM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: NCjim

Piercing with metal or tatoos does harm to a low level. Are they going to out law that?


9 posted on 06/27/2012 6:14:11 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Corollary - Electing the same person over and over and expecting a different outcome is insanity)
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To: NCjim

Circumcision is a blessing from God, first to Abraham and later to Israel. They didn’t at that time possess the medical knowledge to appreciate it.

Germany is aware of the medical benefits. But since it’s a blessing from God, they ignore the benefits and outlaw it.


10 posted on 06/27/2012 6:29:41 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: NCjim

F U Germany. Jews still not wanted.


11 posted on 06/27/2012 6:35:50 AM PDT by Yaelle
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To: LearsFool
Circumcision is a blessing from God, first to Abraham and later to Israel.

Why didn't God just make males already born circumcised?

12 posted on 06/27/2012 6:36:50 AM PDT by trailhkr1 (All you need to know about Zimmerman, innocent = riots, manslaughter = riots, guilty = riots)
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To: NCjim

13 posted on 06/27/2012 6:39:12 AM PDT by ari-freedom
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To: bmwcyle

“Piercing with metal or tatoos does harm to a low level. Are they going to out law that?”

No, because it doesn’t target the Jews. Same with abortion.


14 posted on 06/27/2012 6:42:53 AM PDT by ari-freedom
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To: ari-freedom
Then the German people have achieved hypocrisy again.
15 posted on 06/27/2012 6:45:09 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Corollary - Electing the same person over and over and expecting a different outcome is insanity)
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To: ari-freedom

Circumcision is most prevalent in the Muslim world, parts of Southeast Asia, Africa, the United States, the Philippines, Israel, and South Korea.


16 posted on 06/27/2012 6:48:29 AM PDT by tlozo
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To: sickoflibs

There are clear, positive health benefits to female circumcision as well.

I’d be willing to bet a nice chunk of change that the rates of STD’s, cervical cancer, HPV, UTI’s, and teenage pregnancy are drastically lower among circumcised females compared with age-grouped peers in Western countries.

Of course, we all know that the “health benefits” argument is simply an excuse to perform ritual mutilation on someone who is unable to give proper consent, so it shouldn’t really matter.

I find it odd that the (marginal) benefits of male circumcision — all of which are available by other means — still seem to still pass as a valid excuse for those who seem to realize its unacceptable on other grounds.


17 posted on 06/27/2012 6:50:52 AM PDT by gzzimlich
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To: gzzimlich
RE :”I find it odd that the (marginal) benefits of male circumcision — all of which are available by other means — still seem to still pass as a valid excuse for those who seem to realize its unacceptable on other grounds.

I don't see ANY drawbacks to it (done properly) let alone it being ‘unacceptable’, I only see positives.

I am glad my parents made the choice they did for secular reasons(not Jewish or Muslim). My mother told me the Jewish hospital had the best doctors in that area at the time which is she went there to give birth.

18 posted on 06/27/2012 6:58:47 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: sickoflibs

Key word is being done properly. Unfortunately all surgeries have risks. Sure there are medical benefits to circumcision but do they outweigh the complications? That’s why most pediatric groups worldwide (US, Canada, Finland, UK, Netherlands) do not recommend it.


19 posted on 06/27/2012 7:03:17 AM PDT by tlozo
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To: gzzimlich

“I find it odd that the (marginal) benefits of male circumcision — all of which are available by other means — still seem to still pass as a valid excuse for those who seem to realize its unacceptable on other grounds.”

It’s unacceptable NOT to according to the Torah and we would rather face the death penalty than give it up.


20 posted on 06/27/2012 7:03:33 AM PDT by ari-freedom
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To: LearsFool; NCjim
RE :”Circumcision is a blessing from God, first to Abraham and later to Israel. They didn’t at that time possess the medical knowledge to appreciate it.
....
Germany is aware of the medical benefits. But since it’s a blessing from God, they ignore the benefits and outlaw it.

Time has proved this so.

As I posted, my mother went to a Jewish hospital to give birth because they had the best doctors in the area and we were circumcised and I see only positives from it. My parents were Christian and had no religious reason for doing this, but my Mom had a medical profession/background herself and knew who the good doctors were.

21 posted on 06/27/2012 7:08:41 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: tlozo

so why not just say that from now on only adults may consent to this? since it is infants’ consent at issue over this medical procedure, then simply allow the devout to consent as an adult.


22 posted on 06/27/2012 7:10:23 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: ari-freedom
It’s unacceptable NOT to according to the Torah and we would rather face the death penalty than give it up.

I agree completely with you. Unfortunately, this is in Germany, and they have in the past offered that alternative. I am very worried that the same climate is returning, at least in Europe and potentially even in the United States.

23 posted on 06/27/2012 7:11:02 AM PDT by Pollster1 (A boy becomes a man when a man is needed - John Steinbeck)
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To: cloudmountain

“It’s as horrible as male circumcision, imho”

Yeah, it’s just so bad. We need to kill everyone who does that.


24 posted on 06/27/2012 7:17:25 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: gzzimlich

I don’t think you know what female circ. is. They remove the clitoris. The woman no longer has the ability to enjoy sexual pleasure.

They sew the labia together so that urine flows down toward the vagina. Rates of infection are unbelievable.

Yeah. STD’s would go down if the woman hates sex! :-(


25 posted on 06/27/2012 7:18:50 AM PDT by Marie (Our only hope is in electing a very conservative congress.)
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To: longtermmemmory

How about you let us raise our children.

I’ve got 8 kids and a wife with big ass smile on her face.

Seems all the equipment works fine.


26 posted on 06/27/2012 7:20:09 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: longtermmemmory

“since it is infants’ consent at issue”

If they only worried about infants’ consent to abortion so much.


27 posted on 06/27/2012 7:21:29 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: trailhkr1

Circumcision separates those who have the covenant with G-d from those who don’t.


28 posted on 06/27/2012 7:21:29 AM PDT by Marie (Our only hope is in electing a very conservative congress.)
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To: Marie

God, the master of all life, creation, and the universe, cares whether or not a man has a little extra skin around the tip of his penis? Skin he is born with by the way. Preposterous.

I am circumcised as are all three of my sons. The court should stay out of this decision. But to think this decision somehow effects the way god feels is absurd.


29 posted on 06/27/2012 7:34:12 AM PDT by strider44
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To: sickoflibs
I thank God that as a Polish Catholic my parents had me circumcised as a new born.

I have never met any circumcised males that wished to revert.

30 posted on 06/27/2012 7:35:19 AM PDT by where's_the_Outrage?
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To: strider44

You do realize that this doesn’t apply to non-Jews?

http://www.britpro.com/default.asp?p=bris

I won’t presume to speak for Christians, but here’s a resource on that angle:

http://www.gotquestions.org/circumcision.html

But that’s the thing. If Jewish parents believe that they are instructed by G-d to have their sons circumcised, who is the gov’t to say that they can’t do it?


31 posted on 06/27/2012 7:47:46 AM PDT by Marie (Our only hope is in electing a very conservative congress.)
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To: Pearls Before Swine
What a joke. Penile cancers are extremely rare and connected to HPV infection. There are HPV vaccinations approved for boys now. Now you'll come back and say oh but it reduces HIV transmission in sub-Sahara Africa as if there's no behavioral alternative.

There's no justification for circumcision except in the most unusual medical cases.

32 posted on 06/27/2012 7:55:35 AM PDT by newzjunkey
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To: NCjim

Decapitation while yelling “Allahu akbar!”, on the other hand, has been reclassified as cosmetic surgery.


33 posted on 06/27/2012 7:59:29 AM PDT by RichInOC (No! BAD Rich! (What'd I say?))
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To: NCjim

Circumcision of any kind is absolutely beneficial.

Just like cutting off a person’s arms to control body odor is beneficial.

I wonder how many circumcision fans grimace when they see an infant girl with pierced ears? She’s too young! el oh el.

I always find it amazing that God’s perfect design suffers from a critical flaw. Well, at least man was here to correct his mistake. Off with their heads!


34 posted on 06/27/2012 8:11:05 AM PDT by eleventyone
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To: bmwcyle

I’ll take a tilt at your strawman.

Well...with body piercings or tattoos the person receiving them generally agrees to get them. It is kind of like me throwing myself off of a cliff versus other people throwing me off of a cliff.

Or are you suggesting that parents be allowed to pierce or tattoo their days old infants?

So, to break it down...

A person chooses to get themselves tattooed = ok.

Cutting off a piece of your infant’s penis and throwing it away without his permission = not ok.


35 posted on 06/27/2012 8:11:37 AM PDT by eleventyone
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To: eleventyone

How many tatoos do you have?


36 posted on 06/27/2012 8:18:02 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Corollary - Electing the same person over and over and expecting a different outcome is insanity)
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: eleventyone

Oh, and welcome to FR.

You’ve been here a whole two days and are already dumping on Judaism. You won’t last.


39 posted on 06/27/2012 8:40:19 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: where's_the_Outrage?

I have never met any circumcised males that wished to revert.


You just did. (Not revert, which is impossible, but who would have preferred to remain intact with the option later in life to decide for myself.)


40 posted on 06/27/2012 8:53:45 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Hold My Beer and Watch This!)
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To: Jewbacca

“I’ve always noticed gays are the ones obsessed with stopping circumcision.”

So all western pediatric groups are gay because they oppose circumcision?


41 posted on 06/27/2012 8:54:29 AM PDT by tlozo
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To: tlozo

Just like the AMA that removed homosexuality from the list of mental diseases, yes, they do have an agenda.


42 posted on 06/27/2012 9:44:50 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: Jewbacca

different issue.

eventually the baby, normally, leaves the womb.

in the US nobody credible is debating the religion issue. Only the much debated and never substantiated “medical” issue. (see also soap meet water)

For some this debate is over, it is only a next generation debate. (for those in rio linda, there are adults who convert to judism and have the surgery performed)


43 posted on 06/27/2012 10:24:48 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Jewbacca

different issue.

eventually the baby, normally, leaves the womb.

in the US nobody credible is debating the religion issue. Only the much debated and never substantiated “medical” issue. (see also soap meet water)

For some this debate is over, it is only a next generation debate. (for those in rio linda, there are adults who convert to judism and have the surgery performed)


44 posted on 06/27/2012 12:21:55 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: longtermmemmory

“different issue”

Nope. I’ve noticed a 100% overlap between people who would not hesitate to kill a child the last day he is in the womb and make a fit over circumcisin.


45 posted on 06/27/2012 12:55:23 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: NCjim
There are Jews that oppose circumcision as well. Just a point of information, I don't have a horse in this race:

http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

We are a group of educated and enlightened Jews who realize that the barbaric, primitive, torturous, and mutilating practice of circumcision has no place in modern Judaism.

Rabbi Moses Maimonides himself acknowledged that circumcision is done to desensitize the penis and curb masturbation.

Jews are some of the smartest people in the world. We are 1/3rd of 1% of the population, yet we hold 33% of Nobel prizes. We are smart enough to understand that mutilating a little boys' penis is not an acceptable practice in modern times.

A current ballot measure in San Francisco seeks to ban circumcision with no religious exception. Many people have called this ballot anti-semitic and anti-muslim. This is simply not true. All babies deserve genital integrity and autonomy over their bodies. No one has the right to make a decision for a child to alter his body for non-medical reasons, including religion. Religous Freedom does not give one the right to mutilate someone elses's body, even if that person is their child. Parents only have the right to make medically valid decisions for their minor child, like a tonsillectomy or appendectomy. Circumcision is not medically valid.

Have at it.

46 posted on 06/27/2012 1:11:25 PM PDT by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: Jewbacca

It would of worked better if your parents kept your penis in its original condition. Without the foreskin, the head of the penis rubs against your clothing your entire life, desinsitizing it. There is a reason the tip of your penis comes with it’s own built in protcetive cover.


47 posted on 06/27/2012 4:41:15 PM PDT by turn_to
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To: turn_to

Hmmmmm, should I listen to some random penis-obsessed socialist on the internet, or should I continue to follow the 3,500 years of traditions of my people, of which circumcision is one, that have kept us together as a people despite the repeated attempts to kill us from penis-obsessed socialist?

Gosh, so hard to make up my mind!

Now go back to DU and celebrate ObamaCare and the impending collapse of your country.


48 posted on 06/28/2012 8:51:43 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: Jewbacca
We need to kill everyone who does that.

Thanks for making my case with your stupid, puerile answer.

49 posted on 06/28/2012 9:50:46 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: mamelukesabre
You are disgusting. THere’s no comparison between female and male circumcision.

Lameluke: Well, you are probably right. Male circumcision WAS often done for "health" reasons. Female circumcision is done DELIBERATELY to take away the female's possible pleasure. At least, that's what the morons say who still do it in Africa.

However, since science calls them BOTH "circumcision" because of the NATURE of the process your remark seems worthless.
Besides, if it's the pain factor, how do YOU know how it feels for a clitoridectomy?

From Wikipedia: Clitoridectomy is the surgical removal of the clitoris. It is rarely needed as a therapeutic medical procedure, such as when cancer has developed in or spread to the clitoris.
Most removals of the clitoris occur as female genital mutilation, defined by the World Health Organisation as "all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs whether for cultural, religious or other non-therapeutic reasons."
It was once used to curb female masturbation. This procedure is also ritual in certain tribes such as the Maasai in Kenya and Tanzania.

P.S. Non-theraputic reasons: now the US doesn't AUTOMATICALLY do male circumcisions anymore because now it's recognized as unnecessary for males.
P.P.S. It's GOTTA hurt, no matter what. In Africa, there is no sedative or numbing process for the baby girl.

I don't think that you are disgusting...just that you are a lamebrain.

50 posted on 06/28/2012 10:08:58 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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