FReep poll: should women be required to have sonogram before abortion?

Dew York Daily News ^ | 05/06/11 | Aliyah Shahid

[dervish]

done

pretty close now

[AZ .44 MAG]

Yes. Women should know exactly what they are getting into. 46%
No way. This is infringing upon a woman’s right to choose to kill her children. 51%
I don’t know. 2%

[TigersEye]

My point is simply that they are talking about requiring the consumer to purchase and undergo a service/procedure that is unnecessary to what they want to get based on someone's desire to change their thinking and emotions to their POV in order to qualify to use a legal service.

Not to mention the hope is they will then decline the service but that isn't relevant to the liberty issue other than to identify the motivation behind instituting the requirement.

This isn't about the morality or the consequences of using the service. If that were the issue then they would want the service itself to be either prohibited or regulated. This is about trying to manipulate someone's emotions to achieve a different moral decision on their part instead of the traditional role of law that addresses the action itself.

It's a complete departure from the common law principles our Founders used to protect our liberty from an overbearing government. A government that seeks to mold thought not regulate actions. It's the same principle as behind Affirmative Action and Hate Crimes. It's very 1984.

Abortion is murder. A good analogy that speaks to an equivalent level of action isn't possible because when it comes to murdering the born it isn't legal and their are not hit-man businesses where you can legally go pay someone to kill another. If that was legal then this idea would be like requiring the customer to look at pictures of people, presumably people who had the greatest likelihood of evoking sympathy, in the hopes that they would reconsider hiring Murder Inc.

For me it simply crosses another Constitutional line in the hope, not the effect, that people will choose to examine their conscience's instead of the classic use of law that lets people freely choose to follow their conscience or not and if they do harm to another the law sanctions them for their behavior not their thinking.

It's a simple choice between a guiding principle of law that protects liberty by punishing actions that do harm and a principle of law that coerces good behavior and punishes wrong thinking. Thought control. If that fundamental principle of law is acceptable for one thing, anything, then it is absolutely natural that it will be cited as precedent, stare decisus, and become acceptable to all applications of the law.

Thus 0bamaCare which is designed with government control over behavior in its very makeup. This principle that the government has a right to mold our thoughts and behavior is already taking over and supplanting the Founding principles entirely. There can not be two competing principles of law and still maintain a functioning legal system. One or the other has to prevail throughout the system or the rule of law will fail on all counts.

Which is seems to me to be pretty evident that it has. Neither the principle of liberty nor the principle of stateism is truly functioning now and we have lawlessness from top to bottom. Killing a million babies a year is an absolute horror but what is coming as a result of allowing one negotiation after another with our original principles of law is going to make that pale by comparison.

The first deal with the devil is the cause for every demon spawned thereafter.

[Yaelle]

Yes, they should know. They shouldn’t be simply lied to, that this is a mass of fetal tissue that is nothing. By the time the test goes positive and they get in for their appointment at PP, they could be 6 weeks along and see a little beating heart inside a fairly baby-shaped form.

It’s not NOTHING to kill your unborn baby. Families ABOUND that want to raise him if you don’t. Give him a chance.

[Yaelle]

And for early abortion, to see the fetus is difficult unless you do it through the Vagina, which is a bit intrusive.

Um... not any more intrusive than how that baby got up in there... :)

[little jeremiah]

Thank you for your detailed reply. I will think carefully about it.

[TigersEye]

I would also ask you if you realize that this poll was designed, as I alluded to to begin with, to make the pro-life side look bad? The poll results don't matter that much because the questions themselves were designed to be the emotional trigger in order to evoke a conclusion that pro-lifers are inherently unfair.

I declined to FReep this one for that very reason.

[TigersEye]

Thank you for your consideration, lj. It's not an easy one to extrapolate on and I did a lousy too-brief job in the first post. These concepts of what is legally acceptable and appropriate in line with our founding principles have been clouded by decades of deception, manipulation, sophistry and mere apathy.

There has now been over one hundred years of subterfuge by the Progressive movement who have been very stealthy and calculating in convoluting principles and hiding the ideological source of those changes. They count on the fact that people's own self interests will lead them to use those breakdowns in principle for their ends in law making too just making it easier to eliminate the founding principles entirely at some point.

[little jeremiah]

Thank you again.

I will re-read tomorrow and see if I have anything useful or even rational to add... Dog tired and did myself a little concussion a few days ago, practically knocked myself out by not looking where I was going.

(I always have an excuse...)

But seriously, the way things are going it can’t be long before the entire freaking edifice collapses.

The layers upon layers of falsity, greed, manipulation, lawlessness, usurpation of every detail of government by people without any morals, honor or principles, the collusion of media and government, of corporations and government, the depth of corruption of every sort in every field of endeavor, the acceleration profane venality what is laughingly called “culture” - I could go on and on - show that every civilization in the history of the world came to an end, and we can right now see how that happens.

(Not in a jolly mood tonight.)

[TigersEye]

I just wanted you to know where I was coming from. I make no equivocations about what abortion is. It is murder of a human being. But the acceptance of it is more complicated than saying some people are evil and some aren't IMO. As is true of the whole mess you described. There are deceivers and there are the deceived.

The last 270+ years most Americans were working their butts off building the most amazing nation ever. It's hard to be a guardian of high principles from the wolves and weasels slyly stealing and altering it when you're dead tired at the end of the day.

I'm really sorry to hear you got a konk on the head. That's no joke and no dang fun at all. I hope it heals up very quickly.

[little jeremiah]

I’ve had konks on the head before but this one hit just the right anngle, I think right on a suture, and it’s been very odd. Whole face swelled, especially the one side, with a number of unpleasant associated symptoms. Didn’t get better for some days, until yesterday after noon I really upped the CNS formula I take regularly (Central Nervous System). I put it together to help balance brain/mind function and I’m now taking 3X my normal ration.

Things heal slower when one isn’t a youngun.

Some of the founders’ comments about how this government only works with a moral population are very sound. Also I’d add that literacy tests for voters wouldn’t hurt, and perhaps if not property owners, at least not those on govtit. But that’s so many now.

Actually, TE - I’m convinced it’s all going to fall or come apart at the seams and have to be re-done in some way.

Okay - good night!