Food Safety - Produce Traceability (Left and Right agree?)

Vanity | Jan. 22, 2010 | Self

[BillCompton]

I would like some opinions on where the following stands from a Political (left/right) point of view.

Currently, when cartons of produce (tomatoes, etc) arrive at a grocery store, very little information is available about where the product came from and how it got there. This is how almost the entire tomato industry was shut down in the summer of 2008 Wikipedia link. 257 people were hospitalized and one person died. The tomato growers were financially devastated. It turned out to not be tomatoes at all (Mexican jalapeño peppers.) The CDC had 50 people trying to trace through the shipping documents to narrow down where the problem came from. They basically said "it could have come from anywhere. Shut down everything." There existed no way for the investigators to narrow anything down, so the scope kept expanding.

Should the government mandate traceability labels on each carton of produce? The knee-jerk Conservative point of view is no. But suppose terrorists decided to target the produce industry. Suppose they kind of went into the freight hauling business and they poisoned five truckloads of various produce in various places. Currently, it is a dead certainty that we would have to throw away all produce in the entire country. Plus, how could we keep it from happening again a month later? We couldn't.

The produce industry has created the Produce Traceability Initiative (PTI) in response to the problem. It calls for every carton of produce to have a standard barcode that identifies the packing house (where the produce was put into the box) and giving it a serial number. Then, they must keep electronic records that track what field/farm it came from and where it was shipped (you must be able to provide the FDA with traceability information within one hour in the event of an investigation). If all cases had these barcodes on them, you could quickly narrow down who could possible be involved. There would be no need to shut everything down. There would likely be false positives, but almost all of the industry could be excluded for the recall. Within hours, the problem could be identified as having to do with trucks and the FBI could be hot on their trail.

I am interested in the opinions here.

[tiki]

LOL, I forgot to actually answer the question. I don’t think the government needs to stick its nose into it. The market is already making it mandatory and we are doing it.

[tiki]

They already put stickers on a lot of produce, it wouldn’t take too much to add a UPC.

[tiki]

This came up a few years ago, there was a pepper weevil coming in from Mexico in green chile, so the US government still lets them in but tell us US farmers that if a pepper weevil is found in our fields we have to plow them down.

[tiki]

It is usually demanded by the retailer.

[Don W]

Every case of tomatoes I buy has the packer’s name and general location printed on the box.

The vast majority of fruit and vegetables in the mega-mart has a little sticker that denote the growing and/or packing location.

IOW, this is already in effect. Why the FDA incompetents were unable to follow the breadcrumb trail is something they should have to explain.

More regulation is not going to do anything but raise prices. The growers and sellers already have an identification system that is improving daily.

Get gov’t OUT of the way, and things almost always get better, faster!

[patlin]

Horse Hockey!

This is just more bureaucratic BS. As one who deals in ‘fresh produce shipping’ almost daily, the stores know full well EXACTLY where that product came from. It is right in the shipping documents and on every box that the product is shipped in.

This is nothing more than extending “Big Brother” into what we eat.

The problem today is that people do not use their brain & wash their food before they eat it. This country needs to get back to:

Common Sense!

[BillCompton]

I remember the tomato thing, that was bad. Although it is going to be a real pain, it could save our bacon if something like the tomato scare happened with our crop. Our margin is so slim that something like that would probably put us out of business and if we could prove it wasn’t from our farm quickly it could save us.

If you used our company, it would cost you $8,000 and a penny per carton. It would require extra labor effort, but you might not have to add anyone. But you might.

By the way, I love your tag line. It is absolutely true and the message needs to be spread.

[John.Galt2012]

tiki, I that’s not fair and exactly what I’m trying to say. As a farmer (my parents bought a small farm 10 years ago) I look to you to guide us, using logic, critical thinking and good ole common sense. Here’s where I would caution all the small farmers...look who may be secretly (and openly) backing legislation of this nature...Archer Daniels Midland?, Cargill?, Monsanto?. Who will suffer the most lose of profit? Who can better afford to hire teams of paper pushers, inspectors, etc to deal with the additional requirements? Who is more likely to go bankrupt and sell the farm? I trust the small family farmer to tell me what their gut is telling them.

[John.Galt2012]

I’m not a farmer, I am assuming you are...that wasn’t clear in the post.

[BillCompton]

United States government imposed its first personal income tax, on August 5, 1861, as part of the Revenue Act of 1861 3% of all incomes over US $800...flat tax...that lasted a long time. Don't give the Gubment anymore power! For any reason...period. IMHO

Do you have a suggestion for the terrorist problem? Produce is a pretty sizable percentage of GDP. Even a libertarian thinks it is the government's job to protect us from foreign attacks. The cost of doing this is about 1% of the damage that an attack would cause.

[BillCompton]

Private enterprise works better. If airlines had their own security and competed on security, flying would become immediately safer. Similarly if people have a choice they will pay the added prices for secure food. The problem with the Feds running it is that everyone pays more and the food is NOT more secure.

No one is talking about federalizing the produce industry. This is more like food labeling. The government requires it, but does not do it in any way.

[BillCompton]

And this idea would do NOTHING to stop a terrorist from doing that. All that would happen is the govt would be able to trace where the terrorists did their dirty deed but it would not prevent a darn thing.

This also would not prevent bombings and other terrorism. Prevention is not the point. Minimizing the damage is the point. Our mass media would likely get the word out quickly enough where not that many people would be poisoned. But if it destroys the confidence in the food system, that is pretty major. My point is that there is a national defense aspect to this.

[BillCompton]

IOW, this is already in effect. Why the FDA incompetents were unable to follow the breadcrumb trail is something they should have to explain.

I know it seems like it is easy. Believe me, it is awfully hard. You know how they say every person on earth can be connect to any other person with six degrees of separation? This is like that.

It is too expensive to label each piece of fruit with a serial number tied to a unit of production (very different than a simple location.) So Mrs. Smith eats a bad tomato. She reports it 5 days later to the Grocery store. The grocer has thrown away the boxes. So you have to rely on store records. The warehouse does not track which boxes of produce got sent to the store and since the boxes don't have barcodes, they cannot be scanned by the store to track them. So, the grocery store has to say it could have come from this lot, this lot, this lot or this lot on a particular day. We don't know how long the tomato sat in the store before it was purchased, so we block out 5 days. Now the grocer has implicated 25 lots. The suppliers might also have distribution facilities. They can narrow the lot down to five lots they have received. Now we have 125 companies that are the possible source of the problem. Or maybe it was a truck that was contaminated. Now, if you have multiple sick people, you can see how it becomes impossible to narrow the source down very much. Under current law, each of these companies has 24 hours to respond to queries. Many of them are unable to give the information requested. The problem is hard.

With these special barcodes, the store can scan the 40 cartons of produce received each day. If there were 3 cartons of tomatoes each day and 5 days was the safe turnover assumption, then you know exactly which 15 cartons were suspect. You know where they came from, when they were received. The farm can tell you which field they came from, when they were packed and which truck they left the farm in. And the answers can be found quickly.

[BillCompton]

This is just more bureaucratic BS. As one who deals in ‘fresh produce shipping’ almost daily, the stores know full well EXACTLY where that product came from. It is right in the shipping documents and on every box that the product is shipped in.

I am not sure you have thought this all the way through. People don't get sick when you take the produce out of the shipping carton. And you do know they through the box away without ever recording the info that is on the box. Nor does the distribution center on receiving or on shipping. And I too have been dealing with fresh produce shipping daily...for 25 years.

[BillCompton]

...ook who may be secretly (and openly) backing legislation of this nature...Archer Daniels Midland?, Cargill?, Monsanto?. Who will suffer the most lose of profit? ...

None of the companies you mentioned will earn a dime on the PTI. They have nothing to do with it. The PTI does not involve field crops (cotton, wheat, field corn, etc.) It is only fresh fruits and vegetables.

[John.Galt2012]

Do you have a suggestion for the terrorist problem?

Absolutely. I highly recommend killing all of them before they commit their heinous act! Look. This is what all Americans must come to grips with...terrorism is unstoppable and no amount of trading freedom for security will bring safety from terrorism. When Stalin took the people's freedom in the Soviet Union, were the Ukrainians free from terror? Hardly. But I digress. Here's a quote I often use to sum up my thoughts on preventing terrorism (you can add it to the other two for a nice trifecta) "I am willing to trade my life for his. I am smart, and I am willing, and that is all it takes."-John Malkovich, In the Line of Fire. This is what people who value life can't wrap the heads around. As for specifics on your scenario, they are almost limitless, maybe we can discuss it over a beer at the CPAC. I wouldn’t want to give any idiots nefarious ideas. Here's an idea for stopping terrorism that may work as well as any other...Continuously broadcast Bay Watch re-runs throughout the middle east ;o)

[John.Galt2012]

Right, they won’t earn a dime. But will the overhead bandrupt thousands of smaller competetors? Bill, do you work for Archer Daniels Midland, Cargill, Monsanto or their lobby?

[Drill Thrawl]

Bing!

Bing!

Bing!

We have a winner!

[BillCompton]

I know I am quibbling, but you are talking about the wrong industry. It is like the College Football and Pro Football (hey, football is football, right?). You keep talking about the Jets and the Cowboys. I am talking about the Gators and Bulldogs. The companies you mention grow massive acreage of field crops (pro football). In fact, there is almost no produce grown in Iowa, but a lot of corn, right? Produce (college football), which is much harder to grow, process and ship, is dominated by tens of thousands small(ish) farms. Dole and Delmonte might be examples that you are searching for, but they have very targeted product lines.

[John.Galt2012]

No, I understand and hear what you are saying, however, somewhere in the 1000+ pages of the Food Safety Good Good Yum Yum bill (what I would call the Axel) will reside the ability for some Govt. Agency to ultimately expand its reach into every aspect of food production and distribution...they can’t help themselves. Don’t let them wrap you around the Axel of “we’re with the Govt. and we’re here to help” because I promise you it’s about power and money, not safety and security.