Once she fell, Natasha Richardson was doomed (Vanity)

[devere]

It seems that there was no neurosurgeon at the local hospital, and no medical helicopter in the entire province of Quebec, so once she fell poor Natasha was doomed, even if she had asked for immediate medical assistance. It seems almost unbelievable in the 21st century, but that's what socialized medicine brings you. Death.

[Polybius]

Wow ... I'm impressed and in a perfect world that would play out very nicely. Unfortunately in the real world that doesn't happen ...

Really?

What Planet do you live on?

On our Planet, in our rural County, at our Hospital, with our regional Level One Trauma Center (more than 75 miles driving distance way), with our regional Airlift service, it happenes all the time. Sometimes it happens several times in one day.

I know because, after I phone the ER doc to say that the patient Jane Doe has an acute subdural bleed with mass effect and midline shift on CT, an Airlift Northwest helicopter always lands on our Hospital helo pad half an hour later.

They don't have medevac helicopters on your Planet?

Let me check.

Google ..... Planet Canada.

OMG! In Quebec, they actual DON'T!

U.K. actress's death highlights Que.'s lack of medical helicopter ..... The death Wednesday of British actress Natasha Richardson after she tumbled on a Quebec ski hill is raising questions about the province's lack of an emergency helicopter system.

From the link to the Montreal Gazette article: "After she was stabilized, Richardson was transferred to a Montreal trauma centre by ambulance, because, unlike most provinces, Quebec has no emergency helicopter system."

if you're inferring the Canadian response to this emergency sucks you ‘beetle brain’ should catch a clue.

Question: "Why was a time critical patient in Canada transported by ambulance and not by Airlift medevac?"

Non Sequitur Answer: "Anybody that is inferring the Canadian response to this emergency sucks is a ‘beetle brain’ and should catch a clue."

Question: "Nice hysterical rant, Doctor, but ...... Why was a time critical patient in Canada transported by ambulance and not by Airlift medevac?"

You know why?

You know why?

"Because, unlike most provinces, Quebec has no emergency helicopter system."

Did that register with you, "beetle brain"?

"Quebec has no emergency helicopter system."

As I stated clearly in earlier posts had this happened in Stowe, VT or Lake Placid, NY (given the same circumstances) the results would have been exactly the same.

So you "clearly stated" that, did you?

It's a fact because you stated it?

"The circumstances" were that, in a time critical patient, an AMBULANCE, and not an Airlift medevac flight, was used to tranport a patient to TWO DIFFERENT hospitals 75 miles apart instead of DIRECTLY flying the patient 75 miles to the Level One Trauma Center.

Why?

"Because, unlike most provinces, Quebec has no emergency helicopter system."

[MadelineZapeezda]

Natasha likely had a blood clot from which recovery was possible. Unfortunately, in her case, if the time reported is correct, she had a stroke within an hour of falling

Stroke....who said she had a clot and stroke???????We are talking major bleed here.....a burr hole in her head would have saved her and reduce the massive swelling

[Atomic Vomit]

Yeah, why did it take 7 hours to get her to the trauma center in Montreal???
Many of the decisions made in the socialised medical system are made through layers of bureaucracy too, which makes things take longer. Witness the governmental panel meeting to “study” Quebec’s lack of helos. They will have their recommendation in a few months from now. Wonder how many Quebeois will die unecessarily by then.
Mrs AV

[Atomic Vomit]

Also, evidently they do have one(!) fixed wing air ambulance in the province. Why did they not land at a regional airport and transport via ground ambulance from hospital to fixed wing unit? This is cumbersome, but I can tell you from experience, it is faster than relying solely on ground transort.

Oh, it was because there is only one fixed wing unit for the entire province. You can chalk that up directly to socialised medicine.
Mrs. AV

[pillut48]

I wonder if Liam Neeson will be suing the ski resort, the local hospital, and the province of Quebec for not being prepared for emergencies with careflite helicopters?

[fanfan]

We have medivac helicopters here in Ottawa.

I am surprised they don't have them at Tremblant.

[lonestar]

crashing into trees

She didn't hit a tree, did she? All I've read is she "fell." Sonny and Kennedy weren't on the bunny slope.

[aruanan]

It seems that there was no neurosurgeon at the local hospital, and no medical helicopter in the entire province of Quebec, so once she fell poor Natasha was doomed, even if she had asked for immediate medical assistance. It seems almost unbelievable in the 21st century, but that's what socialized medicine brings you. Death.

By way of contrast, my niece's car was hit by another that ran a stop sign at about 60mph. It spun her car around; her seat belt anchor broke and she was thrown out of the car onto the road sustaining multiple skull fractures, subdural and epidural hematomas, broken ribs, broken pelvis, broken hip socket, broken collar bone, lost her spleen and part of her pancreas. Even though it was in a rural area, EMS was there within about 5 minutes. She was transported immediately to one hospital that transferred her at once to a major trauma center by helicopter. Because her head injuries were recognized for the danger they posed and received immediate treatment (including a medically-induced coma), after three weeks she was joking, fully aware of her surroundings and family, and using her laptop. She spent about 7 weeks in the hospital before being transferred to a rehab center and will take another 7 weeks before she will be on her feet again, but her mind is sharp even though her initial coma score was 6 on a scale of 2 to 14.

[Polybius]

Yeah, why did it take 7 hours to get her to the trauma center in Montreal??? Many of the decisions made in the socialised medical system are made through layers of bureaucracy too, which makes things take longer. Witness the governmental panel meeting to “study” Quebec’s lack of helos. They will have their recommendation in a few months from now. Wonder how many Quebeois will die unecessarily by then. Mrs AV

I wrote a more detailed reply but lost it to a Windows Explorer freeze up.

Bottom line: This is Third World standard of care.

At our rural hospital, two minutes after I call the ER doc to tell him I saw an acute sudural hematoma with mass effect on CT, he is calling the Neurosurgeon at the Level One Trauma Center, the nurse is calling Airlift Northwest and, half an hour later, a medevac helo is landing on our helo pad. Ten minutes later, the patient is on the helo and half an hour later, the patient is at the Level One Trauma Center on his way to surgery.

However, I must admit, we spend far more money saving the life of one American in our county than the Province of Quebec spends in burying a dead Canadian.

[Colorado Cowgirl]

The U.S. has 33.9 CT Units per 1 Million persons. Canada has 12.0 CT units per 1 million persons. The U.S. has 26.5 MRI Units per 1 Million persons. Canada has 6.2 MRI Units per 1 million persons. But not having even 1 Helicopter for “flight for life” in a Canadian Provence of almost 8 million??? So much for free medicine. This is what Zero has planned for the U.S., hey looser. KEEP THE CHANGE !!!

[BluH2o]

Neither does Stowe, VT or Lake Placid, NY, any ski area that is somewhat remote, even Vail or Steamboat Springs in CO would be hard pressed to evacuate by helicopter. Bottom line, whether Quebec does or doesn't have medical helicopters is inconsequential ... this patient would have died. Further you imply Canada, particularly Quebec, is third world ... your ignorance is astonishing.

[Don W]

Also don’t forget that the first hospital had no MRI or CT scan, the larger hospital in Montreal also were lacking this equipment.

You're talking through your butt, and it smells like crap to me.

Maybe you should read more than one article.

Coventry Telegraph By Karen Hambridge on Mar 19, 2009

She was taking lessons and was not wearing a helmet when the slip occurred and she banged the left side of her face.

Initially all seemed well and Natasha appeared unhurt, getting up and laughing. She refused to see a doctor and even signed a medical form saying she didn't need help.

But the fall had apparently torn a blood vessel in the brain which started a slow bleed.

Within a hour she was complaining of headaches, nausea and dizziness and lost consciousness.

She was taken to the Centre Hostopial Luarentien where her condition deteriorated. A CT scan revealed a tear in the temporal artery in the left side of the brain and she was immediately transferred to the Montreal Sacre Coeur Hospital.

Doctors administered steroids in a bid to reduce the bleeding but scans showed the level of activity was minimal.

She underwent surgery to remove the blood clot but shortly afterwards she suffered a devastating stroke when the tear to the artery widened.

She was put on a life support machine, although doctors said even then that she was brain dead.

http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/passtheremote/

Knee-jerk, wholly uninformed, ignorant insults to one's neighbour are uncivilized and rude, aren't they?

[Polybius]

Neither does Stowe, VT or Lake Placid, NY, any ski area that is somewhat remote, even Vail or Steamboat Springs in CO would be hard pressed to evacuate by helicopter.

Look BluH2o, I know what I am talking about because of what I do for a living, what my family does for a living and where I have lived and worked for 21 years.

You live in Ohio where every little foothill might be very impressive to you and might be considered a "mountain". You look at Mont Tremblant, where Natasha Richardson was injured and you exclaim. "Wow! What a huge mountain!!!"

Reality Check: The summit of Mont Tremblant has an elevation of 2,871 feet. It is a mere foothill whose crest is not even above timberline. It is only 75 miles from Montreal. It is has not been "remote" by any stretch of the imagination since helicopters were routinely used for medevac in the Korean War.

I lived in a rural county in the Puget Sound region of the Pacific Northwest. To us, Mont Tremblant is not a "mountain".

THESE are mountains and we are surrounded by them.

Mount Rainier

Cascade Mountains

Olympic Mountains

My brother-in-law flew Search & Rescue helos in the Navy and was stationed in this area at NAS Whidbey. I took these photos at a medeavc joint training exercises with the Navy, Airlift Northwest and the volunteer Mountain Search & Rescue units from various Puget Sound counties. My B-I-L is at the controls of that Navy Knighthawk.

(Click Image Shack links to enlarge.)

My B-I-L has plucked an injured climber off of a mountain while he was flying in our region out of NAS Whidbey.

So have other pilots in his squadron at NAS Whidbey, on a routine basis.

Whidbey Navy helicopter helps in ice cave rescue ..... A search and rescue crew from NAS Whidbey Island assisted in yesterday’s rescue of two boys trapped under snow and ice on Snoqualmie Pass.

Every climbing season, injured climbers are plucked off Mount Rainier by helicopter.

Ed Hrivnak, a firefighter with Central Pierce Fire & Rescue, took some pictures of a helicopter rescue of an injured climber on Mount Rainier this morning. He got some great shots. Here's a few

Yes, helicopters fly over foothills, over forests, over large bodies of water, around mountains and fly to the top of mountains, "real" mountains.

That's why we, in remote areas, use them.

The hover ceiling for an Army Blackhawk or a Navy Knighthawk is 10,400 feet. That is 7,500 feet higher than the summit of so-called "Mont" Tremblant. And Natasha Richardson was not at the summit of Mount Tremblat. She was down at the village.

Mont Tremblant is not "remote". It is only 75 miles away from Montreal. That is only half an hour at cruising speed for a medevac helo. Our county does not have a medevac helo. You call them in from their home base in Seattle. Mont Tremblant would not be expected to have a medevac helo. You would call them in from their home base in Montreal.

What you say about Mount Tremblant being "remote" and somehow inaccessible is very true ...... If we lived in the year 1939 instead of the year 2009.

To make such a claim for a village at the foot of a 2,871 foot foothill a mere 75 miles from a major metropolitan area in the year 2009, A.D. is just plain Bravo Sierra.

In the 21 years that I have practiced medicine in this mountainous region, literally hundreds of medevac flights have been called out to our county from Seattle on a diagnostic call I have made. We need to do that because the ground transportation from our Hospital to the Level One Trauma Center in Seattle requires either a ground trip of over 100 miles or reliance on ferries running on fixed schedules. With a time critical patient, "You can't get there from here."

Bottom line, whether Quebec does or doesn't have medical helicopters is inconsequential ... this patient would have died.

Gee, BluH2o, in 29 years of practicing medicine with more cases of closed head trauma and intracranial bleeds than I can possibly remember or count, I never knew that. Where did you do your neurosurgical fellowship training again? We radiologists always learn a lot when you neurosurgeons give us feedback on your surgical outcomes.

As "Mrs." Atomic Vomit pointed out in another post, it took 7 hours to get Natasha Richardson to Montreal. SEVEN HOURS!

In closed head trauma with an intracranial bleed that can be neurosurgically evacuated, THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH.

You have absolutely ZERO experience with trauma medicine or helicopter medevacs and do not have the slightest clue about what you are talking about.

I have 21 years of experience with trauma medicine and helicopter medevacs in a rural mountainous county and, prior to that, 8 years of experience in practicing medicine in the Navy, with the Marines, in the fleet, and ashore both in CONUS and overseas and I do have experience with closed head trauma and with helo medevacs.

Further you imply Canada, particularly Quebec, is third world ... your ignorance is astonishing.

I said that that PRACTICE was Third World and I did not "imply" that that PRACTICE was Third World. I flat out SAID so.

"What's the distinction?"

Glad you asked. I will demonstrate.

Canada is First World, right?

Yes.

British Columbia is First World, right?

Yes.

Our neighbor across Puget Sound and the Straight of Juan de Fuca, the City of Victoria, capital of British Columbia, Canada is First World, right?

Yes.

Did you know that the City of Victoria, capitol of British Columbia, Canada DUMPS IT'S RAW SEWAGE DIRECTLY INTO THE WATERS OF THE STRAIT OF JUAN DE FUCA?

All they do is "screen" their sewage so that, instead of having tens of thousands of floating turds dumped into our common waters (which look bad and would gross out the tourists), they merely have billions of liters of pureed sewage soup dumped into our common waters.

Dumping raw sewage not sustainable: study ...... Greater Victoria cannot continue to dump its raw sewage into the Strait of Juan de Fuca, says a scientific report commissioned by the Capital Regional District. Every year, billions of litres of screened but untreated sewage are dumped into the ocean off Victoria. The debate over the lack of a treatment plant in B.C.'s capital city has caused waves for decades.

And that, BluH2o, is how you can have a "First World" city with a "Third World" PRACTICE.

Victoria is a beautiful First World city. We often take the ferry to visit it.

Be that as it may DUMPING RAW SEWAGE, in order to save money, into the common waters that we, the shoreline communities in this region, share with Victoria, B.C. is a Third World practice and it is an inexcusable practice.

That's all there is to it.

The last time I had a geographic neighbor that dumped it's raw sewage into our common waters, I was stationed at San Diego and Tijuana, Mexico was the sewage dumper.

It's a Third World practice.

Maybe it is excusable for Tijuana, Mexico because, after all, Mexico IS Third World.

It is NOT excusable for the capital of British Columbia, Canada.

Don't tell me my "ignorance is astonishing", BluH2o. Every time we take a ferry to visit Victoria, B.C., Canada, we cruise right through raw Canadian sewage and the water I can see from my window is the same body of water that has had billions of liters of Canadia raw sewage dumped into it every single year for decades.

Likewise, Montreal might be a First World city and it's it's Medical Centers might be First World. Be that as it may, having the entire Province of Quebec without any helicopter medevac service is a Third World practice and it is also inexcusable because, unless you live in or close to Montreal, if you ever have a time critical injury that requires a Level One Trauma Center and you live in the outlying areas away from the "Big City" (as my entire County does), the Province of Quevec, Canada has condemned you to death ....... in order to save money.

THAT is a Third World practice. ...... regardless of the fact that a First World province in a First World country is responsible for that Third World practice.

[Snowyman]

Would have a helicopter made any difference ?

Half an hour later, you hear the sound of the helicopter and your ER staff and the Airlift crew transfer the patient into the helo as fast as possible.

Half an hour later, the helo lands at the Level One Trauma Center in Montreal.

MONTREAL–Actor Natasha Richardson was driven by ambulance from a hospital in Ste-Agathe to a Montreal trauma centre, a trip that took about one hour,

. btw, It's a Third World practice. you're right but you really don't want to point fingers when it comes to talking about raw sewage. Approximately 40 million people in the United States live in cities with combined sewer systems—pipes that carry stormwater, raw sewage from homes, and toxic pollution from businesses and industrial facilities. When it rains these sewers get overloaded, and cause Combined Sewer Overflow (CSO) discharges of raw human sewage mixed with contaminated stormwater and industrial wastes. An EPA 2004 report to Congress estimated that 850 billion gallons of storm water mixed with raw sewage pour into U.S. waters every year

[imintrouble]

I repeat - Socialism seems to think it prevents disasters from happening - thus avoiding lawsuits. Quebec must think it is free from any event such as this - but as we all know it is laissez faire thought - and not reality.

Anyone taking lessons - on a beginner hill or the Olympic settings of Whistler in B.C. - is put at risk by not wearing a helmet.

The instructor in a “lawsuit liable nation such as the US” would think it a mandatory bit of coverage for any beginner
as falling down is a normal part of the learning process.

If they had fear of lawsuits - they would not teach without that helmet in place.

[Polybius]

We have medivac helicopters here in Ottawa. I am surprised they don't have them at Tremblant

An outlying small community is not expected to have a medevac helicopter waiting for a call any more than your neighborhood should expect a UPS truck to be parked in your neighborhood waiting for a call to deliver a package to your Aunt Mary.

The "Big City" has the medevac helos based at certain geographic locations and they then fly to the scene of the event and then to the Level One Trauma Center.

In such a situation in my Puget Sound region, if a call comes from a community 75 miles away, a medevac helo is dispatched from the nearest home base to the community to pick up the patient and fly her directly to the Level One Trauma Center in Seattle.

See my Post 133.

What is shocking is not that a ski resort does not have a medevac helo. Nobody expects them to.

My rural hospital might be involved in 3 or 4 helo medevacs in a single busy day but we don't have a medevac helo. Seattle has them.

When we need one, we pick up the phone and call these guys.

Airlift Northwest

They pick up and they deliver. Just like UPS.

What is shocking is that the ENTIRE PROVINCE OF QEBEC has no medevac helos.

Medevac concerns raised by death Que. lacks medical helicopter service ..... "This is like not having a fire department in a community," said Dr. Tarek Razek, head of the trauma team at the McGill University Health Centre. .... Timeliness is crucial after major head traumas, he stressed. .... "You need to get to a trauma centre fast, and the faster we can organize that, the more likely you are to live," he said. .... He stressed that Quebec is one of the few jurisdictions in North American and Europe that don't have emergency medevac helicopters. ..... even the smaller province of Nova Scotia has this service. ..... In Richardson's case, seven hours passed between her fall and her arrival at the specialized trauma hospital in Montreal. ..... The provincial coroner office said it has no intention of investigating the accident, since the actress died in New York.

That is deliberate bean-counter decision to trade Quebecois lives for budget savings.

Note how "the provincial coroner office said it has no intention of investigating the accident, since the actress died in New York." How about that for a Major League "Nothing to see here, folks!" attitude by the Gubbmint.

In the end, it is a VERY cost-effective strategy for cutting down health care costs. It is FAR cheaper to allow people in outlying areas, like Natasha Richardson, to die than to have a medevac system in place that costs money to maintain and costs even MORE money to save the critically injured patient once they land at the Level One Trauma Center.

In Natasha Richardson's particular case, the Quebcec system is SO cost effective that it is even saving itself the cost of a provincial coronor's investigation since, after all, she DID die in New York.

Now THAT is cost-effective bean counting.

[Polybius]

Would have a helicopter made any difference ?.....MONTREAL–Actor Natasha Richardson was driven by ambulance from a hospital in Ste-Agathe to a Montreal trauma centre, a trip that took about one hour,

Yes, because the standard of care is to fly DIRECTLY to the Level One Trauma Center and not to have to fart around with the local hospital.

In major car crashes, our county hospital gets the victims the we can handle here. The ones that require a Level One Trauma Center are helicoptered out by the medevac helos that land right on the highway and then fly directly to Seattle.

Overall, it took her SEVEN HOURS to get to Montreal.

Here is what the head of the trauma team at the McGill University Health Centre in Montreal had to say about this case.

Medevac concerns raised by death Que. lacks medical helicopter service ..... "This is like not having a fire department in a community," said Dr. Tarek Razek, head of the trauma team at the McGill University Health Centre. .... Timeliness is crucial after major head traumas, he stressed. .... "You need to get to a trauma centre fast, and the faster we can organize that, the more likely you are to live," he said. .... He stressed that Quebec is one of the few jurisdictions in North American and Europe that don't have emergency medevac helicopters. ..... even the smaller province of Nova Scotia has this service. ..... In Richardson's case, seven hours passed between her fall and her arrival at the specialized trauma hospital in Montreal. ..... The provincial coroner office said it has no intention of investigating the accident, since the actress died in New York.

It's a Third World practice. you're right but you really don't want to point fingers when it comes to talking about raw sewage

Whether they do it or whether some American cities do it, it is still a Third World practice.

Those are other examples of having Third World practices in First World countries.

Our city is rather small but we treat our sewage.

[Atomic Vomit]

The sad thing is that there is a private medevac service in Montreal. I don’t know if the family was aware of this or even told that it was an option, with the Canadian attitude toward private businesses being involved with their medical system.

*There is a non-profit, private air ambulance service in Quebec called Air Medic, but it’s supported by paying members. The founder, François Rivard, said the government has never supported the idea of integrating Air Medic’s services into the provincial ambulance system. That means paramedics on the ground can’t call Air Medic even if they feel it’s needed. His service costs about $3,000 per hour.*

Mrs AV

[2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten]

I was thinking the same thing - my best guess is that it depicts a pair of panties in a wad or a bunch. But I could be wrong. The title of the image has “lame” in it.

[devere]

“Actor Natasha Richardson was driven by ambulance from a hospital in Ste-Agathe to a Montreal trauma centre, a trip that took about one hour”

“driving to Mont Tremblant from the city (Montreal) is a 2 1/2-hour trip” said Tarek Razek, director of trauma services for the McGill University Health Centre, which represents six of Montreal’s hospitals.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hcohqsUsBHiy1__XL07PFSC-4N3wD972F92O0

Obviously someone is stretching the truth rather badly; I don’t know who. But the apparent fact is she was checked in to the hospital in Montreal almost 7 hours after her accident. If it’s a one hour drive to Montreal from the first hospital, where did the time go?