Posted on 08/20/2008 10:51:36 PM PDT by Bokababe
US officials have said that their military presence in Georgia will now become permanent.
The American military has been training and equipping the Georgian army since the spring of 2002.
Having trained three battalions of Georgian soldiers, US military instructors were due to leave in March.....
For Moscow, the Caucasus is a geopolitical backyard, rich in energy resources and crucial to the conflict in Chechnya.
Moscow's refusal to remove its military bases from Georgia has long fuelled tensions between the two countries.
Georgia's President-elect, Mikhail Saakashvili, says the removal of the Russian troops will be high on his government's priority list.
The US, whose own stakes in the Caucasus include a multi-billion dollar Caspian oil pipeline, backs this demand.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...
And I think you are a moron who can't construct a rational argument so you resort to desperate and inaccurate name-calling. The rest isn't worth the time to even respond to.
Oh, and ding, ding, ding... Marmema isn't "in Georgia". She's an American who has traveled to Georgia.
I know that "facts" are a difficult concept for you, but try and get at least those right before you start attacking.
OK Bokababe, I’ve got to ask. What’s a leftist kook like you doing in the conservative Freerepublic forum? Come on now - don’t drag it out. It’s easy to read the signs.
I do believe that you Georgians likely have a hundred, perhaps a thousand, good reasons for fighting with Russia, even though your military is dwarfed by theirs. However, from an American perspective, I believe that over the years the US has had far better methods available to deal with Russia than the "brute force, hem them in" strategy that we have been using, but we have squandered them. This surround the Russians and hem them in strategy had no other possible outcome than a face-to-face confrontation where Russia was going to come out swinging and everyone in the neighborhood -- Georgia and the Ukraine -- was going to get mauled. The current method for dealing with Russia was only a "workable strategy" if you want to create wars, not avoid them -- and Georgians are now paying the price for it.
You seem quite realistic about America's limits on this and are willing to live with those limits. But Shakaashvili is making speeches that are intended on dragging the US into what could be a World War -- and frankly, I hope that the American people do not respond. As much as I wish you and your people well in your struggle, it isn't my struggle and it isn't our struggle. Russia isn't a threat to the US -- unless we corner her and Russia feels she has nothing to lose -- at that point, all bets are off. And "Abkhazia and S. Ossetia" are just not worth the US risking getting nuked over.
Last time I checked, "conservative" was not defined as "rude, suicidal moron". If it was, I am sure that we'd find your photo next to the definition.
As for your ability to "read the signs", you obviously missed the one that said, "Stop, you are out of your league." So do everyone a favor, and quit embarrassing yourself with the schoolyard bullying and behave like a grown-up. I am sure that you can fake that if you have to.
No seriously ... what are you doing here?
Looking for a level of civilized political debate withing conservative principles that you are either unwilling or incapable of providing. If you want to see what one of those looks like, try this one between me and Tiger's Eye.
Until you are willing to deal with the issues rationally without resorting to name-calling and hurling insults as "arguments", don't go away mad, just go away -- and quit pinging me!
My Mom (N. Dakota native) was once talking to her sister-in-law (Arkansas native) back in the Sixties, when the latter suddenly said, "It still makes me mad we lost that war!"
My mother, totally confused as to what she was referring to, replied, "Huh?? What war?"
"The War Between The States".
Without missing a beat, my Mom answered, "Oh, but I thought we won that war".
They both had a good laugh over it.
There is nothing "Leftist" about not wanting a US military (nuclear) confrontation with Russia over some little patches of grass in Georgia. Defense Secretary Robert Gates says we have sought for 45 years to stay out of a shooting war with Russia and we are not going to get into one now. President Bush assured us there will be no U.S. military response to the Russian move into Georgia." So what are you saying, that Gates and Bush are "Leftists", too? If that's the case, then perhaps the Third Reich would be more to you liking.
In case you haven't, noticed fool, what I predicted did come true -- Georgia IS now on her own. Our US Ambassador to Georgia even justified Russia's initial response, but if you want to keep cheerleading Georgians to go kill themselves confronting Russia and thinking that we are going to come help them, then go work out your sadistic fantasies on your own.
You neocon "let's bomb everyone because we can" morons have forgotten what real Conservatives even look like -- hint: "We are sane."
You are the one acting like the pushy "Leftist" here, Gay guy. Whatever your sorry little point was, you made several posts ago -- so move on and quit harassing me for attention.
That was just rude.
“We are simply using it as an excuse to provoke Russia and scare Europe. We are exploiting the situation, not helping it.”
God you are such a Russian/Serb troll, always America’s fault. Your Russian boys invade Georgia and stay there and it’s America exploiting.
Screw you.
If you can’t see any relationship between us recruiting countries for NATO all the way up to Russia’s doorstep, installing missiles and radar systems in Poland & the Czech Republic pointed at Russia — and what just happened in Georgia — then you are either ill-informed or just plain deluded.
Unfortunately you perceptions about aspirations Russians (or rather their KGB breed leaders) may have are based on an erroenous assumptions. You actually think that if USA and the rest leaves Russia alone here, everyone will be happy and Russia will be helping US and the rest of normal civilized world in addressing issues such as Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, global warming, etc; but read the below and I trust you will think about changing your mind:
Putin is natural born KGB officer, having approached KGB at the tender age of 15 asking them to recruit him - there was a french documentary on this subject released just recently.
No, what I am about to tell you has to aspects to it: one ideological and I leave it up to you to believe it or not - better if you will; but the second one is very pragmatic, which can be proven even by actions Putin has already taken.
First, the many foe, adversary, enemy of KGB is USA, was, has been and always will be - no matter what you think or choose to think because this is to scary and an alternative is more comforting. Merely check out Soviet propaganda, always depicting evil of this world as capitalist Americans, trying to grab an entire world and oppress poor working class everywhere. This has not changed; these people just to not get how to change; and events that have taken place in Georgia recently are clear manifestation of this inability to change. No matter what US will try to do, Russian KGB will ALWAYS be there to stab you folks in the back, “assisting’ you with one hand, while with the other making sure that folks like Iranian president are in good and indepetable supply.
Second point is more pragramit and would require you looking at the map of the world and the map of energy recourses currently known. and it is all about oil and gas, so let's take it step by step:
Gas - very peculiar commodity, which can only be transported by pipelines, unfortunately. Now, Russia has one of the largest gas fields in the world, but so does a bunch of central Asian republics, as well as Azerbaijan, and Iran as well. This pool, I am sure represents a considerable portion, if not the majority of world's gas reserves. Now, remember, this can only be transported with pipelines. Now, Russia currently buys gas in central Asian republics at I think 100 USD and sell it to Europe for 350 - 400. Now, look at the map; what alternatives do central asian republics have: start from the north and work your way clockwise: Russia Russia, Russia and then Pamir mountains, behind them Himalayas. There is (a) no way you can constructs a pipeline over these mountains, and going through Russia does not give you an additional customer. So , further south lies Pakistan, Afghanistan and then Iran. You may kiss good buy to Pakistan option, considering ongoing war around Kashmir, plus again impassable mountains. So the only terrain that can accommodate pipeline would be some territories of Afghanistan and Iran, bringing gas to Indian ocean, or alternatively, routing pipelines through Iran to Azerbaijan. Another alternative here is to go through Caspian see, directly to Azerbaijan. So no matter what we do, we end up with our pipelines in Azerbaijan; Considering ongoing was with Armenia, the only rout to these pipelines is to go through Georgia, as turning them south would again lead them to Iran or Iraq. As long as there are hostilities in Afganistan (very easy to maintain those) or there is a “situation” in Iran and Iraq, Georgia remains the only viable option to create alternative to all this energy to reach Europe.
Now, oil; transportable commodity, but: again, largest producers are Russia, Central Asian republics, Azerbaijan and then Gulf states, including Iran and Iraq. Sorry but as long as the above situation persists, i.e. there are wars / situations in Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq, there is no way world wide price of oil comes down, considering transportation risks, insurance costs (do you know how much more it costs to secure ship insurance for the ports located close to hostilities?!).
Now, analyze all of the above from the standpoint of Russia: if it helps resolve situations in Afganistan, Iran, Iraq and Georgia for that matter, it accidentally looses its monopolistic position on gas supply, plus the price of oil drops dramatically. Now, do I really have to explain to you what this means for a country where 70% of GDP is based on export of raw materials and natural resources? Why would ever Russia voluntarily cut the hand that is feeding her so generously, especially in recent years!
KGB and Russia will ALWAYS act on these fronts exactly as they did in Georgia or in Russia; saying that they want resolution of conflict but doing EVERYTHING to actually promote keeping such situations / conflicts under reasonable control. And if they prevail, at the end of the day they will have so much cash while US and Europe will be so much depleted of any strenght fighting traitorous wars and resolving similar conflicts, that they will be able to buy out all public companies, only to see their funds returned to them as price for even more increased oil gas and all other supplies.
It's not about Abkhazia or South Ossetia... it is about the very thing you appear to cherish so much - your own country!
Our US Ambassador to Georgia even justified Russia’s initial response,
This is absolute missstatement of facts: I personally know Ambasssador Teft and he would have never said anything like this. What was reported was an interview of US ambassador to Russia, given to and printed to a Russian newspaper, but even that was vehemently denied by a couple of senior highranking officials of US state department. Now, are you really going to believe what Russian newspaper is printing?!?!?!?!?
Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin were in favor of European integration and looked forward to building good relationships with the west and a joint effort toward world peace. Putin is against it. It is merely a political decision made by Putin to rebuild the conflict between east and west.
Hm, Gorbachev wanted merely an end to the tension between east and west. Although it was under his administration that demonstrations were brutally dispersed in Georgia, Azerbaijan and Baltic states. Yeltsin was too drunk to want anything but keep in mind, it was under his administration that Russia instigated conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and his VP threatened to bomb Tbilisi. There were some people in their adminstrations that wanted these changes, but KGB was always there with opposing ideas. Yeltsin handpicked Putin to be his successor to power, or did he?. I would not idolize these two figures way to much... sorry...
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