Posted on 04/20/2008 11:50:11 AM PDT by JRochelle
"This is about children who are at imminent risk of harm," said Texas Child Protective Service's Marleigh Meisner.
"We are very much against child abuse in our society," insisted a representative of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
So which is it?
When Texas authorities raided the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, Texas, they not only brought out 416 children, they brought a reclusive society blinking into the sunlight.
"They came in with guns," said one horrified resident of the ranch. "They were armed - SWAT teams - we were removed from our homes at gunpoint."
They are members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or FLDS. CBS News correspondent Hari Sreenivasan sat down with three of the FLDS women: Janet, Amy and Sally.
"We're different and we hold many things sacred," one of them told Sreenivasan, "but that doesn't mean we're trying to hide wrongdoing."
But in two days of child custody hearings, a judge heard testimony about underage girls giving birth and arranged plural marriages.
"The majority of marriages that we're aware of happen between 14 and 16, said Flora Jessup. "However, we do know of marriages that have occurred to as young as 8- or 9-year-old children."
Jessup escaped from the FLDS 22 years ago and is now a CBS News consultant. She says marriages are arranged by their leader, whom they call a prophet.
"All the girls' names are added into this book called the 'Joy Book,' and the prophet goes through and gets revelation from God," explained Jessup.
Marci Hamilton, a church and state scholar at Cardozo Law School in New York, is an expert on childhood sex abuse. She has one word for it: pedophilia.
"They've created a society in which it's appropriate to have sex with girls as young as 13," said Hamilton. "And also, it's an organization that operates on a patriarchal system, so that men are in charge; women are subservient; and the children are beneath the women."
Sreenivasan asked the FLDS women if they felt it was okay for a young woman who is still a teenager to be married to a man who could be twice her age.
"If that happened," answered Sally, "she would be very much loved and taken care of. There's no fear of anything like that."
Polygamy has been outlawed by the Mormon church for more than one hundred years, but FLDS members say they are clinging to the original teachings of church founder Joseph Smith. They believe it's a matter of religious faith - faith that Jim Bradshaw, a lawyer representing the FLDS, says has been attacked by this month's raids.
"In terms of a parallel in modern American history of violation of civil rights, I don't know that there is one," said Bradshaw. "To take away that many children from that many families based upon something that's completely unsubstantiated, that doesn't appear to have any foundation in credibility, it's ludicrous."
But there IS a parallel. Fifty-five years ago, in 1953, the government raided a remote FLDS compound at Short Creek, on the Arizona-Utah border.
More than 100 police went in, arresting several dozen men; 86 women and 263 children were taken into custody. Reporters were invited along on the raid, a strategy, says Peg McEntee, an assistant managing editor at the Salt Lake Tribune, that backfired.
"There were cameras and news people there who recorded this entire event, and those images and stories went all across the nation, which rose up and indignation and shock that the state had just arbitrarily raided this place and taken all these people into their custody," recalled McEntee.
Life magazine headlined "The Lonely Men of Short Creek," who were stunned as they had to make their own breakfast.
"The men were ultimately placed on probation," said McEntee, "were made to promise that they would never indulge in polygamy again. The women were kept as wards of the states. Many of the children lived in foster homes for about two years until they were released and allowed to go back. What happened was everybody just went back to Short Creek and began their lives again."
Today Short Creek is still an FLDS stronghold, now called the communities of Colorado City, Arizona and Hilldale, Utah.
The next major police action against the FLDS came just two years ago, with the arrest of reputed leader Warren Jeffs. He was convicted of rape as an accomplice, for arranging marriages to underage girls.
His major accuser was Elissa Wall, who testified she was forced into marriage at the age of 14. After the trial, the now 21-year-old Wall felt the case had sent a message.
"I hope all FLDS girls and women will understand that no matter what anyone may say, you are created equal," said Wall.
How has that message been received?
"I know you didn't set out to be making statements on behalf of your faith or your practice, Sreenivasan told the FLDS women, "but how would you help people understand that your kids are safe here?"
"Well, to begin with," one of them answered, "our leader teaches us how to be clean and pure and virtuous. The men teach us, we follow their direction because it's the best way of life. And they themselves are clean and pure."
There are months, perhaps years of legal fighting ahead for the men, women and children of Eldorado. If there are criminal convictions, Professor Hamilton believes it would be the end of this compound.
"There is nothing in the First Amendment that says that any religious group has the right to exist," she said, "no matter what they do."
But Peg McEntee says, keep in mind the lessons of the raid of 1953.
"I do know they are people strong in their faith," she said, "strong in their convictions, and as we saw in Short Creek they kept to their faith, to their families, kept to their way of life. And I see that as a great possibility in the years to come after this raid."
As for the women of Yearning for Zion, they just want it to be over with and to be left alone.
"We've been out in the world. We were raised in the world. We know what it's like," said one.
"We chose," another explained. "We chose to be here because it is such a wonderful life here."
I have read of some extreme Christian cults. Let’s face it, the Branch Dividians come to mind. I am certainly not in favor of the way Reno went into that situation, but Dr. Bruce Perry of the Child Trauma Academy http://www.childtrauma.org/ talks in his lectures about working with some of the kids in the aftermath. (I am on our local Child Abuse Prevention Council and has heard him speak.)
The Branch Davidians are not Christian in any form or fashion.
They were booted out of the Seventh Day Adventist movement in the 1930's. Their leader, Vernon Howell, a.k.a. David Koresh, was a self-proclaimed messiah who had sex with numerous women and children.
Bottom Line: You can't tar Christ with that brush. Svcw's challenge still stands. Keep looking, and please ping me when you think you have found something.
From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
• The Church reiterated on 6 April that it has no affiliation whatever with the Texas-based sect that has been subject to investigation by state law enforcement officers and child protective services in recent days, and whose leader, Warren Jeffs, was jailed in 2006.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued polygamy officially in 1890. Some people left the Church to continue the practice of polygamy, or were excommunicated because they refused to give up the practice. Some of their descendants are found in polygamous communities today in various parts of the United States and Canada, but especially in the West. They are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
• [The late] Church President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church’s October 1998 general conference: “I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members … If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church.”
• Some news reports, especially those outside the U.S., still fail to draw clear distinctions between Mormons and polygamous sects whenever stories arise about polygamy in the Intermountain West.
• The term “Mormon” is correctly used to apply ONLY to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Mormon” should never be used to describe polygamous sects.
• Latter-day Saints are offended when elementary mistakes are made in the news media or when printed or posted photographs fail to make the distinction between the Church and polygamous groups.
• Elder [M. Russell] Ballard [of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles] stated: “You would think that after over 100 years, media organizations would understand the difference. You can’t blame the public for being confused when some of those reporting on these stories keep getting them wrong.”
• There could not be two groups of people more different. Mormons do not look like members of the polygamous group in Texas — they do not dress like them, worship like them, or believe the same things.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a global faith with 13 million members worldwide. We teach the gospel in 90 languages. There are members of our faith in every country. We are the 4th largest denomination in the U.S. We have donated over $1 billion in humanitarian aid worldwide. We operate Brigham Young University. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could not be more different than these small, secretive, polygamous societies.
They did, however, claim to be a Christian Sect of the Seventh seal.
At one time the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints argued polygamy as practiced by the FLDS cult was essential to salvation.
For example, citing the opinion of the United States Supreme Court in the case of Reynolds v. United States case (98 U.S. 145), George Reynolds, Brigham Young's personal secretary, plead as follows:
On the trial, the plaintiff in error, the accused, proved that at the time of his alleged second marriage he was, and for many years before had been, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, commonly called the Mormon Church, and a believer in its doctrines; that it was an accepted doctrine of that church "that it was the duty of male members of said church, circumstances permitting, to practise polygamy; . . . that this duty was enjoined by different books which the members of said church believed to be to divine origin, and among others the Holy Bible, and also that the members of the church believed that the practice of polygamy was directly enjoined upon the male members thereof by the Almighty God, in a revelation to Joseph Smith, the founder and prophet of said church; that the failing or refusing to practise polygamy by such male members of said church, when circumstances would admit, would be punished, and that the penalty for such failure and refusal would be damnation in the life to come." He also proved "that he had received permission from the recognized authorities in said church to enter into polygamous marriage; . . . that Daniel H. Wells, one having authority in said church to perform the marriage ceremony, married the said defendant on or about the time the crime is alleged to have been committed, to some woman by the name of Schofield, and that such marriage ceremony was performed under and pursuant to the doctrines of said church."It should also be noted the LDS Church steadfastly resisted all attempts to abandon the Principal (of polygamy) until the church was disbanded as a criminal organization under the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887 and their property ordered seized.
Furthermore, many in the LDS Church ignored President Woodruff's instructions to abandon polygamy until the Church was embarrassed in the Smoot Hearings (1904-07). Two members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, among many others, were expelled from the brotherhood for increasing their number of polygamous wives. The Mormon Church was forced to issue a "this time we really mean it" Second Manifesto
Finally, it should be noted every LDS Church President openly practiced polygamy for over 120 years beginning with Joseph Smith in 1833 [when he "married" Fannie Alger after impregnating the 16-year old], continuing through 1945 and Heber Grant (above).
In light of the above, I find attempts by LDS members to distance themselves from their FLDS cousins on the grounds polygamy is morally and/or spiritually and/or doctrinally wrong both amusing and disingenuous.
Similarly, you can claim you are a tree -- but that doesn't make you a tree.
Keep trying.
From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
• The Church reiterated on 6 April that it has no affiliation whatever with the Texas-based sect that has been subject to investigation by state law enforcement officers and child protective services in recent days, and whose leader, Warren Jeffs, was jailed in 2006.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued polygamy officially in 1890. Some people left the Church to continue the practice of polygamy, or were excommunicated because they refused to give up the practice. Some of their descendants are found in polygamous communities today in various parts of the United States and Canada, but especially in the West. They are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
• [The late] Church President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church’s October 1998 general conference: “I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members … If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church.”
• Some news reports, especially those outside the U.S., still fail to draw clear distinctions between Mormons and polygamous sects whenever stories arise about polygamy in the Intermountain West.
• The term “Mormon” is correctly used to apply ONLY to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Mormon” should never be used to describe polygamous sects.
• Latter-day Saints are offended when elementary mistakes are made in the news media or when printed or posted photographs fail to make the distinction between the Church and polygamous groups.
• Elder [M. Russell] Ballard [of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles] stated: “You would think that after over 100 years, media organizations would understand the difference. You can’t blame the public for being confused when some of those reporting on these stories keep getting them wrong.”
• There could not be two groups of people more different. Mormons do not look like members of the polygamous group in Texas — they do not dress like them, worship like them, or believe the same things.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a global faith with 13 million members worldwide. We teach the gospel in 90 languages. There are members of our faith in every country. We are the 4th largest denomination in the U.S. We have donated over $1 billion in humanitarian aid worldwide. We operate Brigham Young University. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could not be more different than these small, secretive, polygamous societies.
See if you can understand this. Try. I know it’s hard.
One more time:
From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
• The Church reiterated on 6 April that it has no affiliation whatever with the Texas-based sect that has been subject to investigation by state law enforcement officers and child protective services in recent days, and whose leader, Warren Jeffs, was jailed in 2006.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued polygamy officially in 1890. Some people left the Church to continue the practice of polygamy, or were excommunicated because they refused to give up the practice. Some of their descendants are found in polygamous communities today in various parts of the United States and Canada, but especially in the West. They are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
• [The late] Church President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church’s October 1998 general conference: “I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members … If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church.”
• Some news reports, especially those outside the U.S., still fail to draw clear distinctions between Mormons and polygamous sects whenever stories arise about polygamy in the Intermountain West.
• The term “Mormon” is correctly used to apply ONLY to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Mormon” should never be used to describe polygamous sects.
• Latter-day Saints are offended when elementary mistakes are made in the news media or when printed or posted photographs fail to make the distinction between the Church and polygamous groups.
• Elder [M. Russell] Ballard [of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles] stated: “You would think that after over 100 years, media organizations would understand the difference. You can’t blame the public for being confused when some of those reporting on these stories keep getting them wrong.”
• There could not be two groups of people more different. Mormons do not look like members of the polygamous group in Texas — they do not dress like them, worship like them, or believe the same things.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a global faith with 13 million members worldwide. We teach the gospel in 90 languages. There are members of our faith in every country. We are the 4th largest denomination in the U.S. We have donated over $1 billion in humanitarian aid worldwide. We operate Brigham Young University. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could not be more different than these small, secretive, polygamous societies.
“Well, to begin with,” one of them answered, “our leader teaches us how to be clean and pure and virtuous. The men teach us, we follow their direction because it’s the best way of life. And they themselves are clean and pure.”
___________________________________________________
No, lady, jumping from bed to bed is not clean, pure activity...
And at your age, if you need a guy to “teach” you his idea of “clean and pure and virtuous”, you have got serious problems...
"Ian Punnett welcomes Irene Spencer, a fifth generation polygamist who was the second of ten wives and the mother of 14 of her husband's 58 children. Now escaped from the clutches of polygamy, Irene will tell her captivating story."
(10 p.m. pacific time)
Way, WAY too many!
Why are you telling us about such tripe?
Everyone knows they are lying....
(but of course the pedophile rapists inside the cult would NEVER lie. :p )
According to your prior posts (with corrections noted):
From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
Agreed.
As noted HERE with annotations, many members of the LDS Church did not abandon the Principal with the announcement of the First Manifesto. The LDS Church openly and officially tolerated the practice in the Office of the President until 1945.
President Hinckley's statement raises the following questions:
Agreed, although in defense of the media, sometimes it is hard to delineate between the various groups in terms of doctrine (excluding D&C Section 132).
But don't the polygamous sects accept the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine & Covenants as inspired works? Don't they try to follow the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to the letter? Doesn't this qualify them as Mormon? If not, why?
I don't blame you. It offends me when elementary mistakes are made about Christianity, such as when individuals refer to Mormons as a Christian sect.
Agreed.
Actually, with the exception of Doctrine & Covenants Section 132, don't you believe in the same things and worship like them?
Your church membership statistics are highly suspect. And, as noted above, there are many similarities between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its Fundimentalist offshoots.
I understand that mostly you don’t know what you are talking about. Sounds like you are a huckster supporter trying to make sure Romney is not nominated for vp. You guys are all pretty funny.
I stand by the original statement and deny in full any of your comments that you added.
Hey zak, why don’t you send all of us FI the html version of your post so we can spam with it?
Got a linky for the internet ???
Sorry, found that note on another site with no link. Maybe you can find one?
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/schedule.html
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/info/wheretolisten.html
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