Dino-Era Feathers Found Encased In Amber (100 Million Years Old)

So I’ve started wondering: you put a lot of effort into denying that dinosaurs had feathers of any sort. Rather than down, you insist that they had some kind of external tissue that looked like down and functioned like down, but no way no how was related to feathers. Why does it matter? You’ve made it clear that you don’t think common morphology or common DNA proves anything about common descent, and we’re told over and over that the reason animals have characteristics in common is that God reuses parts. So wouldn’t it be simpler to just stipulate that God gave some dinosaurs feathers, since they worked so well on birds? I mean, here you are arguing that some dinosaurs had a feature that as far as I can find, no other animal has (a “collagen frill”). Why do you find that more plausible than feathered dinosaurs?—it’s not like any other similarity across species has convinced you they’re related. Think of all the time you’d save.

[[So I’ve started wondering: you put a lot of effort into denying that dinosaurs had feathers of any sort]

It wasn’t me who put hte effort in- but rather scientists- there are even macroevolutionist scientists who dispute hte claims

[[Rather than down, you insist that they had some kind of external tissue that looked like down and functioned like down, but no way no how was related to feathers.]]

No- that’s not what I said- I said it has been proved that the ‘down’ on the chinese dinos in the past shows it to be modified collagen

[[You’ve made it clear that you don’t think common morphology or common DNA proves anything about common descent,]]

True. Morel iek common design (and just for hte record- even htough sdome species are ‘similar’ in their gentics, there are still billions of differences between even the ‘closest’ of dissimilar kinds)

[[and we’re told over and over that the reason animals have characteristics in common is that God reuses parts.]]

Well close- not that He reused, but that He used the same design features in many pseices.

[[So wouldn’t it be simpler to just stipulate that God gave some dinosaurs feathers, since they worked so well on birds?]]

Here’s somethign that may surprise you- ‘Creationists’ are not opposed to the idea that Dinos could have had feathers- the simple scientific fact htough is that there simply is no evidence for it- modified collagen is a far cry from feathers and the differences between the ‘down’ of dinos and the TRUE feathers of birds is a matter of scientific fact- not opinion. Science has no evidence that collagen could ‘turn into’ feathers- the two materials are entirely different.

[[Think of all the time you’d save]]

Not looking to save time, just getting the facts out there, regardless of if they refute popular opinion or not. The onyl thing I see in the fossil record are down-like covered dinos, not feathered dinos. The other hting I see though is a whole bunch of hope in a hypothesis of dino to bird, and a bunch of scientifically unsupported claims concernign ‘feathers’ on dinos. The whole dino to bird hypothesis seems to be the one great hope for the TOE, but it falls flat scientifically unfortunately.

[[Why do you find that more plausible than feathered dinosaurs?—]]

See above.

[[it’s not like any other similarity across species has convinced you they’re related]

They’re not- but it sure is heavily touted that they are related- despite the lack of evidence. Got some nephews and neieces in gradeschool, and they coem to our house discussing evolution, and I state that dinos didn’t turn into birds, and they say “That’s not true, our teachers said they did.” What the heck kind of teaching is that? It certainly isn’t based on scientific fact!

h, real irrelevent:

“And here we have one of FR’s most hysterical posters, in full rant mode, unable to spell and unable to make any sense at all..Cottshop is always great for a full blown laugh, when he/she gets into these ranting modes, which is generally most of the time..

To: Coyoteman

[[And your unlearned opinions are relevant?

What a joke!]]

Since you can’t seem to follow a conversation Coyote- I’ll explain this REAAAAALY slowly for you- I didn’t present opinions- I presented FACTS- somehtign you seem oblivious to, and loathe to cede whenver those FACTS refute your claims! Next time why not pay attention instead of blatting about somethign that is irrelevent ot the conversation. If you can refute the FACTS Coyote- IF you can show they are infact feathers or heck- even protofeathers for that matter- then fine- do so- but try a little maturity instead of posting ignorant childish comments irrelevent ot hte issues being dicussed! How old are you anyways? You act liek a third grader!

30 posted on 03/13/2008 1:49:53 PM PDT by CottShop
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-new ... page=30#30

It is obviously Cottshop, who is acting like a third grader, well let us say a first grader, while hysterical and having a temper tantrum...”

Posted on Darwin Central

[[I sent you a smilie face on that FR thread...poor Cottshop wont know what to make of it...was I smiling in agreement with what you said?...was I laughing at you?...poor old Cottshop, will have to scratch his brain a bit to try to figure out, who I am and if I support evolution....]]

(also posted at DC- Which is supposed to be a site where scientists hang out- but the above is pretty common rhettoric for what passes as ‘science’ there I guess)

Oh- Cottshop knew full well what to make of it Andy- As I said- you can feign all you want but noone is falling for your crap.

thoise posts look familiar to you Andy? They aught to- they were posted by you over on DC for hte sole purpose of ridiculing and maligning. It seems hwne folks like you can’t answer quesitons here on FR you go runnign back to the safety of DC where you all sit aroudn throwing insults around as though it’;s some sort of what? Victory? Security? Instead of stickign ot hte issues, answerign hte questions, You folks seem to get your kicks monitoring FR looking for anythign with which to insult those you dissagree with. Someone asked awhile ago why some of the ‘scientists left FR’, and now I think we have our answer- they didn’t constantly like having hteir pet hypothesis exposed as unsupported assumptions, and htey preferred a place where they could run everyone into the ground when the issues were too difficult.

Yeah- I’m scratchign my head Andy- wondering how a bunch of scinetists can sink to the levels soem of you folks do on DC

Thanks for posting my posts...now we all know where you yourself spend your time...excellent...

And my name is not Andy...perhaps you should try to figure that out for yourself, tho it is quite obvious...

Your opinions about evolution, are irrelevant, to me at least...any discussions that attempt to discuss evolution with you, wind up in Bible lectures from you...it was that way months ago, when I once tried to engage you in meaningful discussion, and it appears that it is that way now...

And that is why I say ‘irrelevant’ because I do find all of your posts concerning evolution to be irrelevant...

And all of this, because I smiled at Coyote...how strange...

And do figure out, that I am not Andy...it is really very easy to do...

>>I think this embarrassing episode is just an example of what happens when you outsource the production of fossils to the Chinese.
------------------
That's probably right. The specs called for a "transitional feather," and they came up with something that looks like a primitive feather.

Hey, wait a minute...<<

Yeah, but the low labor and desert proximity make up for a few slips in production quality.

To say nothing of ancillary market in Dragon bones for Chinese medicine.

Dragon bone is classified as sweet, astringent, and mild in nature. It is taken internally to tranquilize nervousness, calm the mind, and astringe sweating; topically it is used to promote tissue regeneration and astringe boils. In modern Chinese clinical practice, dragon bone is most frequently used to "settle uprising yang." This syndrome can contribute to hypertension, stroke, menopausal hot flashes, and various mental disorders. Dragon tooth is classified as astringent and cool. It is taken to stop palpitation, calm the mind, clear away fever accompanied by restlessness, and treat epilepsy. Dragon bone and tooth materials are not recommended for use in cases of heat accumulation due to excess-syndrome. Yang Yifan explained the differentiation of dragon bone and dragon tooth this way (8): "Dragon tooth is heavier than dragon bone and its descending property is stronger and quicker than that of dragon bone. Dragon tooth is very effective for sedating the heart spirit and calming the mind and is used to treat manic-depressive psychosis, hysteria, anxiety, irritability, and insomnia. Dragon bone has two functions that dragon tooth does not. First, it can anchor the liver yang to treat liver yang rising, which manifests as dizziness, tinnitus, headache, and dream-disturbed sleep. Second, it can stabilize the leakage of the essence and body fluids."

Samples of dragon tooth (top) and dragon bone (bottom) of the variegated type.
Whole pieces are often much bigger and are broken up to be used in the pharmacy,where they are then often crushed to make powder.

---------------------------
Otherwise, they might be using real fossils...

[[Thanks for posting my posts...now we all know where you yourself spend your time...excellent...]

Just returning the favor after I wqas tipped off to the fact that you spent your day postign about old Cottshop over on DC.

[[And my name is not Andy...perhaps you should try to figure that out for yourself, tho it is quite obvious...]]

Just shortened the name- no offense

[[any discussions that attempt to discuss evolution with you, wind up in Bible lectures from you...]]

That’s a lie- My past posts on evo matters are enough to dispell that quickly

[[it was that way months ago, when I once tried to engage you in meaningful discussion, and it appears that it is that way now...]

It does? Mind telling me and others where I broke out into bible quoting or lectures from the bible here?

[[And that is why I say ‘irrelevant’ because I do find all of your posts concerning evolution to be irrelevant...]]

Yep- the facts abotu feathers and scales is ‘irrelevent’- whatever- have fun maligning my ‘irrelevent’ posts over on DC.

[[And all of this, because I smiled at Coyote...how strange...]]

No- All this because you said what you said over on DC- not strange at all.

[[And do figure out, that I am not Andy...it is really very easy to do...]]

You already said that

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Thanks blam. Note: this topic is from 3/12/2008. Blast from the Past. Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.