Reports: Iran to buy jets from Russia

jpost.com ^ | Jul. 30, 2007 | YAAKOV KATZ AND HERB KEINON

[neverdem]

Israel is looking into reports that Russia plans to sell 250 advanced long-range Sukhoi-30 fighter jets to Iran in an unprecedented billion-dollar deal.

According to reports, in addition to the fighter jets, Teheran also plans to purchase a number of aerial fuel tankers that are compatible with the Sukhoi and capable of extending its range by thousands of kilometers. Defense officials said the Sukhoi sale would grant Iran long-range offensive capabilities.

Government officials voiced concern over the reports. They said Russia could be trying to compete with the United States, which announced over the weekend a billion-dollar arms sale to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states.

Despite Israeli and US opposition, Russia recently supplied Iran with advanced antiaircraft systems used to protect Teheran's nuclear installations. At the time, Moscow said it reserved the right to sell Iran weapons, such as the antiaircraft system, that were of a defensive nature.

The Sukhoi-30 is a two-seat multi-role fighter jet and bomber capable of operating at significant distances from home base and in poor weather conditions. The aircraft enjoys a wide range of combat capabilities and is used for air patrol, air defense, ground attacks, enemy air defense suppression and air-to-air combat.

[timer]

More of the guns vs butter issue in iran, which will win?

[piytar]

Go for it, Koranimals. Waste your cash on substandard Russian cr@p. We took that garbage apart in the first Gulf War and the invasion of Iraq, and you haven’t done squat to improve it since.

PS To that dumbf### Putin: Yeah, your arms sales are going to be a thorn in our side. Too bad you are just too da## stupid to remember that your Koranimal problem drawfs ours (Chechneya, anyone?)...

[Bon mots]

They sold a lot of this junk to Iraq before Gulf War I - so much that Iraq had one of the world’s most heavily equipped as well as largest military forces.

This stuff quickly turns to scrap metal and rusting coffins when one of these third world ratholes actually tries to put it to use against nations equipped with western military hardware.

Much of these aircraft will either fall into ruin or be shot down / blown up on the ground.

[Candor7]

With the Sukoi 30, and tankers, Iran will be able to achieve air superiority over Syria and Lebanon, while flying from points in Iran.

Israel will NOT be safe.

The Russians need to get out of town.

[TeddyCon]

But the Sukhoi-30 is "capable of operating at significant distances from home base and in poor weather conditions!" LOL!

In other words, it's Still no match for our F-18Es. Much less our first-sight, first-shot, first-kill 22s!

It will be able to fly through Algore's climate apocalypse, while ours can't. So...

[Gondring]

Let's see if the French allow this sale to go through...it will require their approval, owing to the French components used in the Su-30MKMs the Iranians are looking to buy.

BTW, don't underestimate the SU-30.

Go for it, Koranimals. Waste your cash on substandard Russian cr@p. We took that garbage apart in the first Gulf War and the invasion of Iraq, and you haven’t done squat to improve it since.

Actually, the SU-30 is post-Gulf War.

[A.A. Cunningham]

Those who dismiss the Sukhois as "cr@p" do so out ignorance, plain and simple. Emoting seems to be cathartic for some people. I'll defer to the opinions of people like Paul Gillcrist with thousands of hours in their log books and American pilots who've actually flown the Flanker series of aircraft, not keyboard commandos.

Russian Fighters for American Airforce/Navy: The only prudent solution!

[A.A. Cunningham]

Still no match for our F-18Es.

The F/A-18E is no match for the Sukhoi. Do a little homework and compare the performance of the two; range, payload, speed, etc., and then you'll be able to correct your post. The Super Hornet can't even replicate the performance of the plane it "replaced", the F-14D, let alone the Flanker series.

[TeddyCon]

Oh, I don't underestimate it. But I don't overestimate it either.

I'm just used to a lot of people on other sites doing that every time an enemy of ours buys any Russian bird, is all.

They love to talk this 'Ooh, you're in trouble Now, America!' trash. But after I smack em' around with tech and performance comparisons, then I'm just another arrogant American with a superiority complex and blah, blah, frickin' blah.

One thing Is for sure though. Iran's pilots are gonna get their asses handed to em' by our guys.

I mean the ones who actually stay and fight our guys and don't bug out to fly their birds to Iraq like the Iraqis flew theirs to Iran in the Gulf War.

[LibLieSlayer]

Maybe... just maybe this is why we are selling Military equipment to the Saudis? Ya think?

LLS

[TeddyCon]

Do a little homework and compare the performance of the two; range, payload, speed, etc., and then you'll be able to correct your post.

I've done plenty of homework, and I already know that in a straight fight, you're absolutely right. Any version of the 18 is no match for the Sukhole.

But in a case like this one, I don't do the 'all things considered' bit (range, payload, speed, etc.,) without also taking the Iranian pilots skill - among other - levels into consideration.

Hence, my also having mentioned that our guys are gonna hand them their asses, if they don't all run off to park whatever it is they're flying in Balad or Bagram first.

[PreciousLiberty]

“Those who dismiss the Sukhois as “cr@p” do so out ignorance, plain and simple. Emoting seems to be cathartic for some people. I’ll defer to the opinions of people like Paul Gillcrist with thousands of hours in their log books and American pilots who’ve actually flown the Flanker series of aircraft, not keyboard commandos.”

First of all, tney’d better deliver quickly or they won’t be there when needed... ;-)

Even if some aircraft are delivered, it’s not clear that they’ll be too effective due to their runways being cratered. The US has a nice inventory of anti-runway cruise missiles. So, whatever STOL and improvised runway capabilities the Iranians have will likely be tested as well. Airbases are also vulnerable to a first strike from F-22s, B-2s and F-117s, as widely seen in Gulf War I (those strikes were F-117 only of course).

The article you linked is from a few years ago, however I’ll agree with you that the Sukhois are a fine third generation airframe. However, the avionics and most likely the piloting will be well below the level of US third generation craft (F-15, F-16 and F-18). One wildcard there is how well the AA-10 actually performs against US aircraft and countermeasures. The range of the upgraded AIM-120C-7 (latest AAMRAM variant) is highly classified so the Iranians will definitely have many sphincter clenching moments during merge (if you can call it that at 40+ mile ranges). Tactics will obviously be more important if the weapons are more evenly matched.

Against the F-22, my guess is the SU-30 has basically no chance, all other things being equal. Lobby your congressmen for more F-22s...somewhere around 300 would be much better than the currently planned buy.

[Holicheese]

The best plane in the world in the hands of a bad pilot is still no match for an Israeli F-15, F-18 or F-16.

[ken21]

that feature story on gorbachev in the sunday lost angeles times made me laugh.

gorby says that putin is pursuing democracy.

[CCGuy]

“Lobby your congressmen for more F-22s...somewhere around 300 would be much better than the currently planned buy.”

300 would be much better but it’s even worse than that. The original requirement for F-22s was 750. That number was based on thorough analysis by military planners. Then politicans with no military experience at all said “we need to cut that number”. No planning, no need studies, just stupid playing with numbers. This happened several times in the 90s and the early Bush administration.

We really need 567 to man all AEFs and still have a good amount for training and developmental research. They have to replace about 750 F-15s.

Even though the Raptor is a much better airframe it still can’t be in two or three places around the world at the same time so we need at least a similar number of aircraft.

Even a war with China alone would be a multi-front fight. We would have to be hitting them from the east, south, and west so large numbers of aircraft would be needed for each region. And with China we are going to need some numbers because aircraft will be lost.

[PreciousLiberty]

“00 would be much better but it’s even worse than that. The original requirement for F-22s was 750.”

I know but I’m talking about what actually might be possible in today’s climate. I understand the F-35 buy has been bumped up so that will help some.

I had a conversation with an E-2 guy the other day (he hangs with F-18 jocks all the time). I was surprised to hear that he didn’t think ACM UAVs would be around for a long time. To me they seem an obvious need, sooner rather than later.

The B-1R idea also deserves a second (and third if necessary) look.

[Kunikuni]

This is an interesting thread. Shouldn't someone be asking what has prompted this scenario though? Respectfully guys, take a look at this... ["US accused of fuelling arms race with $20bn Arab weapons sale
Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Monday July 30, 2007
The Guardian

The Bush administration is facing claims that it is fuelling an arms race in the Middle East following the disclosure of a plan to sell $20bn (£9.8bn) of advanced weaponry to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states.

The plan, which will be announced today, will be balanced by a 25% increase in US military and defence aid to Israel. A further $13bn will be pledged to Egypt.

"This administration does not have an arms sales policy, except to sell, sell, sell," said Daryl Kimball of the Arms Control Association. "That approach in the Middle East can be like throwing gasoline on a brush fire."]
The Guardian article in full


Then this...

Quote: Picture:["A U.S. F-15C fighter, bottom, and an Indian Sukhoi-30 fighter fly in air combat maneuver during a joint air exercise over Gwalior, India, last February.

"Tuesday, July 13, 2004 By Jack Kelly, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

In a joint exercise in February, U.S. Air Force pilots flying the top U.S. fighter, the F-15C, got chewed up by Indian military pilots flying new, and not so new, Russian fighter planes.

The Air Force won't disclose exactly how the mock engagements turned out, but Gen. Hal Hornburg, head of Air Combat Command, said afterward, "We may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we once thought we were."
Post Gazzette article

[Holicheese]

I remember when that happened.
The USAF pilots were only allowed to fly inside certain altitudes while the Indian pilots were allowed to go as high or as low as necesary, if I remember correctly.
Kind of like letting a tennis player use the doubles lanes and you have to stay in the service boxes.

The F-15 has never been shot down in combat as far as I know. I would be shocked if in an even playing field the USAF would get their butts kicked.

[PreciousLiberty]

“The F-15 has never been shot down in combat as far as I know. I would be shocked if in an even playing field the USAF would get their butts kicked.”

F-15 combat record: 104-0

Most of the technical specifications for the radars, missiles and other systems on these fighters are classified. No real numbers would be used for wargames. There’s a reason for the NOFORN marking.

Still, the modern world isn’t a place where you should become complacent.