King Herod's tomb discovered, Israeli university says

YNet ^ | May 7, 2007

[Alouette]

They involved the executions Herod's own Hasmonean princess wife, Mariamme

Mariamne killed herself because she believed Herod was planning to marry her. She jumped off a tall building and proclaimed, "Whoever claimed to be a descendant of the Hashomaim, is really a slave, because I am the last survivor of the Hashomaim. and I now destroy myself!"

It is said that Herod preserved her body in honey, in order to claim that he had wed the princess of a priestly dynasty, and also, so that he could...(but I don't want to go there.)

[ChicagoHebrew]

“Actually, Josephus was paid by the family of Herod to write the history. He would not have recorded anything that was not favorable to them.” I did not know that. Learn something new here every day. Thanks.

Well, that's because it's wrong. Josephus was paid by Vespasian, the Roman Emperor. He had no particular love for Herod (as shown by documenting Herod's historical brutality, as opposed to the ahistorical mythmaking of the "New" Testement).

[ChicagoHebrew]

It must be remembered that Josephus is a Jewish historian. For him to record the infanticide, he would have to supply an explanation as to why Herod should do such a deed. This would require him to record the claim of the magi, that Jesus was born "king of the Jews". Josephus and other Jews would no doubt prefer to stay clear of such a discourse.

Not really. The Christians of Josephus' day were a tiny sect that Josephus had no particular compunction discussing (hence his discussion about Jesus' death and a sect named after him). And either Josephus or the Talmud would have brought such a story down, if it actually happened, as an example of Herodian/Roman brutality -- many other such stories are found there, from the Maccabean Alexander Yannai's slaughter of Pharisee rabbis, to a riot started when a Roman soldier farted on Jewish pilgrims.

[Polybius]

“Actually, Josephus was paid by the family of Herod to write the history. He would not have recorded anything that was not favorable to them.”

I did not know that. Learn something new here every day. Thanks.

Josephus wrote his histories while living in Rome beginning in the year 71 after he had been freed and made a Roman citizen by Emperor Vespasian. The commission to write his histories also came from Vespasian.

A Chronology of the Life of Josephus and his Era

Josephus' writings regarding the death of Herod speak for themselves in regards to the contempt Josephus had for Herod.

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVII, CHAPTER 6. Paragraph 5: "But now Herod's distemper greatly increased upon him after a severe manner, and this by God's judgment upon him for his sins; for a fire glowed in him slowly, which did not so much appear to the touch outwardly, as it augmented his pains inwardly; for it brought upon him a vehement appetite to eating, which he could not avoid to supply with one sort of food or other. His entrails were also ex-ulcerated, and the chief violence of his pain lay on his colon; an aqueous and transparent liquor also had settled itself about his feet, and a like matter afflicted him at the bottom of his belly. Nay, further, his privy-member was putrefied, and produced worms; and when he sat upright, he had a difficulty of breathing, which was very loathsome, on account of the stench of his breath, and the quickness of its returns; he had also convulsions in all parts of his body, which increased his strength to an insufferable degree. It was said by those who pretended to divine, and who were endued with wisdom to foretell such things, that God inflicted this punishment on the king on account of his great impiety; yet was he still in hopes of recovering, though his afflictions seemed greater than any one could bear."

Since Josephus claimed a Hasmonean descent, Josephus' hatred of Herod is to be expected.

[Polybius]

And either Josephus or the Talmud would have brought such a story down, if it actually happened, as an example of Herodian/Roman brutality --

The Herodian atrocities were on such a scale (the massacre of 3,000 Pharisees by Herod Archelaus, for example) that the killing of a dozen children or two in Bethlehem would make no more of a footnote in the history of the era than the last car bomb in Iraq that killed at least 20 people.

[Polybius]

They involved the executions Herod's own Hasmonean princess wife, Mariamme .........

Mariamne killed herself because she believed Herod was planning to marry her. ...... It is said that Herod preserved her body in honey, in order to claim that he had wed the princess of a priestly dynasty, and also, so that he could...(but I don't want to go there.)

Herod did marry the Hasmonean princess and had four children by her:

Mariamne (second wife of Herod).........Mariamne I (54 BCE to 29 BCE) was the second wife of Herod the Great. She was the daughter of Hasmonean Alexandros, and thus the last heir to the Hasmonean dynasty of Judea. Her mother, Alexandra, arranged for her betrothal to Herod in 41 BCE, but the two were not wed for four years, in Samaria. Mariamne bore Herod four children: two sons, Alexandros and Aristobulus (both executed in 7 BCE), and two daughters, Salampsio and Cypros........Salome insinuated that Mariamne planned to poison Herod, and Herod had Mariamne's favorite eunuch tortured to learn more. The eunuch knew nothing of a plot to poison the king, but confessed the only thing he did know: that Mariamne was dissatisfied with the king because of the orders given to Sohemus. Outraged, Herod called for the immediate execution of Sohemus, but permitted Mariamne to stand trial for the alleged murder plot. Mariamne was convicted and executed in 29 BCE, and Herod grieved for her for many months.

The rumors of Mariamne's embalmed body being kept in honey and the alleged necrophilia came about after Herod had Mariamne executed.

Herod’s next eldest sons, Alexander and Aristobulus, were his children by Mariamme. They were also strong contenders for the succession, but because they were Hasmonaean aristocrats, Herod didn’t trust them. Their attitude towards him didn’t help. Part of this was snobbery on their part – they had been educated in Rome and he was a badly educated provincial type who was getting old. It didn’t help matters that he’d executed their mother. They may have heard the rumours that, ever since her death, he had kept her body embalmed in a jar of honey, and that in his madness he visited her at night to continue their relationship. .... In 7 BC, the king’s temper got the better of him and he had both Alexander and Aristobulus strangled.

[MeanWestTexan]

In fairness, the Christian testaments paint a pretty clear picture that Herod was a ruthless bastard concerned with his position of power over all else. I think that is pretty consistent with all the other accounts.

While no means an expert, I think Herod’s in there twice:

(1) for ordering the killing of 20 or so infants or toddlers because some Persians Zorastrians (the “wise men” of Matthew) tipped him off accidently

(the dispute at issue in this thread)

-and-

(2) beheading John the Baptist because he told Herod to his face that he (Herod) was a ruthless prick and no son of Abraham -— in the Christian testaments, JTB was (greatly oversimpliying here) basically a itenerant preacher in the mold of Isaiah -— message “repent now -— or else.”

This is backed up by (I think — I just copied a link) Flavius Josephus (Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2)

“Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.”

Which, again, is basically the story in the Christian testaments.

Most are pretty sure JTB was a Essene (Dead Sea Scroll guys), BTW, and I tend to agree on that point -— wandering around in burlap, eating locusts, etc.

Which is a long way of saying, while there can certainly be arguments with the Christian testament in other ways, it’s pictures of Herod are spot-on.

[Sherman Logan]

Herod the Great is the guy who ordered the slaughter of the Innocents at Bethlehem.

He’d been dead for three decades or so when John the Baptist was murdered by his son Herod Antipas.

All those Herods are confusing because we think of it as a first name, when it was really a family name.

[MeanWestTexan]

LOL. Well, I freely admitted not being an expert.

The point that they’re all pricks, stands.

[buck61]

Josephus does record that Herod ordered the killing of his young Jewish children for fear that they sought to take over his throne.

Hail Caligula!!!!

[Sherman Logan]

Agreed.

Herod Agrippa I, although tough on Christians, appears otherwise to have been reasonably decent and a pious Jew.

[SunkenCiv]

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