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To: DB

Some of it yes, but not all. The bombing of Dresden and the fire bombing of Tokyo and both nuclear detonations should have been war crimes. All targeted civilians rather then military targets. its one thing to aim for a military target, or what you think is a military target, then miss and kill civilians. Quite another thing to aim from the start to kill civilians.


15 posted on 05/20/2006 8:45:19 PM PDT by zaggs
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To: zaggs

both nuclear detonations should have been war crimes.

You serious? Those nuclear detonations that you say should have been war crimes ended WWII, the bloodiest war in human history. Had they not been dropped the war would have went on, and an all out invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been necessary. The American casualties of such an invasion would have made D-Day look like a minor skirmish. Something to remember the next time you think that this war a "war crime".

39 posted on 05/20/2006 9:01:06 PM PDT by frankiep (Visualize Whirled Peas)
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To: zaggs

both nuclear detonations should have been war crimes.

You serious? Those nuclear detonations that you say should have been war crimes ended WWII, the bloodiest war in human history. Had they not been dropped the war would have went on, and an all out invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been necessary. The American casualties of such an invasion would have made D-Day look like a minor skirmish. Something to remember the next time you think that this war a "war crime".

41 posted on 05/20/2006 9:01:18 PM PDT by frankiep (Visualize Whirled Peas)
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To: zaggs

As opposed to the London Blitz, the V1 campaign, and the mass slaughter of a significant portion of "Manchuria" and China by the Axis - all of which happened first?

It's not a war crime to respond in kind, IMHO.

Also, with regards to the use of nukes on Japan - the only other alternative was 5 million Allied dead, and the complete extermination of the Japanese nation and people. The Japanese would have fought to the last man, woman, and child. Compared to the anticipated 30+ million dead in Japan if we'd invaded instead, I have no problems with Truman's use of nukes.


46 posted on 05/20/2006 9:04:47 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: zaggs
Couldn't disagree with you more about Hiroshima. It was the HQ for the defense of the southern Japanese main islands, including Kyushu, where we would have landed. It was the major embarkation point for reinforcements coming in from Manchuria and heading out to Kyushu. It had major war production [American POWs were enslaved there]. In short, it was a legitimate military target.

As for the fire bombing of Japan, we had three options: naval blockade, and starve thousands, if not millions of Japanese civilians, firebombing and nuclear bombing to break their back, and their will to resist, amphibious invasion, and face the potential loss of exceptional heavy American casualties.

As for option one, would it have been more 'moral' to starve them [and our POWs] to death slowly, rather than kill the Japanese quickly? As for option three, would it have been worth the death of all those American troops, and all the POWs [their executions had been ordered for as soon as the invasion began] so we could feel morally superior? I would remind you that the Japanese government refused to surrender before the A-bombs were dropped, when option one was already in play, refused after the Hiroshima bomb was dropped, and refused for at least FIVE days AFTER the Nagasaki bomb was dropped before accepting terms.

The Japanese plan, from IWO on was to make the U>S and her Allies suffer so many casualties that we would give Japan a much better peace than we were offering. I, for one, will eschew the morality for the lives of the troops, POWs, and in the long run, the civilians.

As for the Germans, by 1944, they had moved their war industries underground, or into compartmentalized production in many cities and towns [German production reached its height in Sept. or Dec.1944]. The Germans made their cities targets. Hamburg was a port. Dresden was on the interior lines between the Eastern and Western Front. And unlike the Japanese, the Germans put up fairly effective air defense until late in the war, which led the Allies to use night bombing of large areas to avoid heavier losses. So, in a sense, the Germans were the authors [in part] of their own misfortune.
55 posted on 05/20/2006 9:09:25 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: zaggs; tbird5

I was almost 13 when the war ended.

Everyone,kids and adults alike,would cheer when German and Japanese cities were bombed. It was war fatigue and everyone knew someone in the war.

War does strange things to people.

Sad !


66 posted on 05/20/2006 9:15:30 PM PDT by Mears
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To: zaggs
The bombing of Dresden and the fire bombing of Tokyo and both nuclear detonations should have been war crimes.

I have to respectfully disagree about the firebombing of Japanese cities during World War II. The resaon is simple: a huge fraction of Japanese war industry was done in small shops scattered all over large metropolitan areas, and before World War II most Japanese cities were extremely vulnerable to fires due to most of the buildings being made of wood. That's why when Americans bombed Tokyo on the night of March 9-10, 1945 it burned 16 square miles of the city and likely severely hampered the many shops building war materiel there.

72 posted on 05/20/2006 9:18:09 PM PDT by RayChuang88
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To: zaggs

Well zaggs, you haven't created a profile page, so I can't know how old you are or what kind of experience you might have. But, as a genuine "Oldfart," I have a little first-hand information that you might not have access to.
I served in Japan after that war and I saw both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I met people who had been burned by the intense heat and who had lost their families and homes to those blasts.
I also met many other Japanese citizens who had suffered under the wartime restrictions normal to any losing effort. Most of all, I saw the preparations all those people had made to 'welcome' the American sodiers.
You have to realize that the Japanese people had been told for years that American soldiers were cannibals and that they had a particular taste for babies and small children. Not only were the hills and mountains of Japan honeycombed with interconnecting tunnels, the farmers and factory workers- male and female- were thoroughly instructed in methods of self-defense with simple items such as rakes and brooms. I had the opportunity to see a young woman administer a severe beating to her American boyfriend when he got drunk and decided to slap her around. If the other women in Japan had been even half as well trained our military would have had its hands full before it got off the beaches. The tunnels were stockpiled with as much weaponry as could be spared from the front lines and those soldiers who had been injured and were no longer fit for service were prepared to die for their homeland.
I know there are college professors who genuinely feel that dropping the bomb was a war crime. Unfortunately, they developed their theory by reading and learning from other college professors who had no personal experience to draw upon. I don't know your personal experiences but in my view, having lived there for several years, I firmly believe that Truman saved a million or so lives by dropping those bombs.


86 posted on 05/20/2006 9:25:17 PM PDT by oldfart (There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous people and the most dangerous person is the one who h)
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To: zaggs
The bombing of Dresden and the fire bombing of Tokyo and both nuclear detonations should have been war crimes. All targeted civilians rather then military targets.

Are you joking???? While all terrible things, none of those actions were taken by the allies with the intent to attack civilians. The fire bombing of Tokyo spared most of the civilian housing. The point of the fire bombs was to overwhelm the Tokyo fire department to prevent them from saving the factories.

All though LeMay always knew that if we lost the war that he would be tried as a war criminal by the Japanese, he also knew that his orders saved more Japanese lives than they cost.

As far as Hiroshima and Nagasaki are concerned, both cities were Japanese army depots. They were military targets. Besides, Japan and the Japanese people were warned. The Potsdam Declaration was clear to all the people of Japan, "Stop fighting or be destroyed". The Japanese people had chosen to fight with rakes if they had to, and they made that clear to Truman.

"...The might that now converges on Japan is immeasurably greater than that which, when applied to the resisting Nazis, necessarily laid waste to the lands, the industry and the method of life of the whole German people. The full application of our military power, backed by our resolve, will mean the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland..."

"...We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction."

100 posted on 05/20/2006 9:34:50 PM PDT by txroadkill
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To: zaggs
Some of it yes, but not all. The bombing of Dresden and the fire bombing of Tokyo and both nuclear detonations should have been war crimes. All targeted civilians rather then military targets. its one thing to aim for a military target, or what you think is a military target, then miss and kill civilians. Quite another thing to aim from the start to kill civilians.

War crimes are made-up crimes defined in order to put a legal sheen around the process of executing enemy personnel whose actions the winning power did not consider cricket. Me personally - I would have simply rounded up the offending enemy personnel and just executed them. That was Churchill's personal preference, but the legal eagles in Roosevelt's administration insisted otherwise.* You could call it winner's justice - but that's what the losers called the war crimes trials anyway. And everywhere that the losers won - earlier on in their military campaigns - they massacred millions of civilians and POW's who had passed into their control.

I think Steven Den Beste put it best - wartime conventions are a pact between two sides to adhere to certain niceties so that the eventual loser doesn't come off too badly when he is defeated. If one side breaks the rules, he loses the protection that the agreement conferred upon him - the other side doesn't have to abide by them either. Wartime rules are not stone tablets handed down by some deity - they exclude tactics that can be of benefit to the side that practices them, even as the other side shrinks from them. This is why when one side breaks the rules, the gloves are off.

People who believe that the Japanese could have been defeated without dropping the atomic bombs have left out one important question - at the cost of how many more American lives? The invasion of Okinawa left 20,000 Americans dead over the course of 2-1/2 months. (And the island is just a little smaller than New York City, land area wise - just under 500 square miles). In that 2-1/2 months, the Japanese were busy massacring tens of thousands of Allied POW's and Asian civilians they considered dangerous. Any American leader who advocated anything less than the use of these bombs over Japanese cities would have been guilty of a genuine war crime - the crime of sentencing hundreds of thousands of his own soldiers to unnecessary deaths.

* This is why we have "crimes" defined by the legal proceedings in the WWII kangaroo courts. And "crimes" that are being used to criminalize American servicemen.
128 posted on 05/20/2006 9:51:57 PM PDT by Zhang Fei
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To: zaggs
"War crimes"

Gee pal, I think the Axis powers sort of decided the question about total war...don't you? But let's go back in history and try the Allied leaders for those "war crimes" and defeating the fascists. (/sarcasm)

229 posted on 05/21/2006 1:01:07 AM PDT by driftless ( For life-long happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: zaggs
The bombing of Dresden and the fire bombing of Tokyo and both nuclear detonations should have been war crimes.

Ask those American Military Personnel getting ready to invade Japan.

They would not convict President Harry Truman.

The hundreds of thousands of Japanese who were not killed had the invasion of their home land taken place.

Pure BS that winning the war by bombing Japan was a war crime!

233 posted on 05/21/2006 2:25:17 AM PDT by TYVets (God so loved the world he didn't send a committee)
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To: zaggs
You appear to be unaware the Japanese had a major atom bomb project of their own. Associated with it were giant aircraft carrier submarines, long range bombers, and a number of other elements all designed to enable their military to drop atom bombs on American cities.

We not only beat them at their own game by developing the atom bomb first, we demonstrated why they'd best not try it now or in the future as a retaliatory strike.

248 posted on 05/21/2006 4:42:58 AM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: zaggs

That's called"collateral damage".While I agree that the bombing of Dresden was a"crime",I cannot go so far as to call Tokyo,Hiroshima,or Nagasaki "crimes".While the Japanese had to be brought to their knees,the Germans were already there!Dresden was overcrowded with refugees fleeing the Soviet onslaught and(axcepting the battle for Berlin which involved ONLY The Red Army fighting SS fanatics)the Germans were DONE!!!!!The utter destruction of that beautiful,ancient city(Dresden)was TOTALLY unnecessary and GRATUITOUS!!!!!!"Bomber Harris"was shunned following the war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


297 posted on 05/21/2006 10:50:50 AM PDT by bandleader
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