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'Dr Dino' offers strategy for addressing Darwinian inaccuracies
Agape Press ^ | March 6, 2006 | Jim Brown

Posted on 03/12/2006 1:58:44 PM PST by balch3

(AgapePress) - A Christian evangelist known as "Dr. Dino" advocates a three-pronged approach to countering public school textbooks that use faulty evidence for Darwinian evolution.

Dr. Kent Hovind says instead of trying to get intelligent design or creationism taught in public schools, the main objective of critics of evolution should be requiring accuracy in science textbooks. Hovind, the founder of Florida-based Creation Science Evangelism, notes many states already have laws requiring textbooks to be accurate -- and if they do not, he says, teachers should have the right to correct any inaccuracies in those books.

"Jesus lived in the Roman Empire and did not spend any time trying to change the Roman Empire. He just changed people, one at a time," Hovind points out. "And I think the grassroots approach of changing people is bulletproof -- I mean, there's nothing you can do to stop that."

He continues, saying the "second level of attack" would involve changing teachers. "Get the teachers converted or at least knowledgeable on the topic, where they know what the truth is," he suggests. "Then it doesn't matter what the textbook says, because the teacher's not going to teach it anyway -- or the teacher's going to teach it and expose the error."

Hovind says a third and more difficult plan of attack would be to change existing textbook requirements at the state level. But in that aspect, he laments, Darwinists are beating Christians to the punch.

"The atheists are really good at getting involved in the committees that select the state standards for education," he says. "Now, you can get five or ten atheists in your state that actually control what everybody is taught."

Once those individuals get on the committee, he says, "They'll vote -- they'll lobby the senators and representatives, and they'll say, 'We want you to vote in this legislation that requires the following things to be our state standards for education.'"

Later this month, Hovind will be holding a two-day seminar at the Pennsylvania high school a federal judge recently barred from mentioning intelligent design in biology class.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: bibleidolatry; christiannincompoops; christians; conmanken; crap; darwinism; darwinistkooks; darwinistsarerinos; doresearchnaaah; drdino; drdumbass; evangelist; falsechristians; festering; fleecingthegullible; id; idiocy; ignoranceisstrength; intelligentdesign; lyingforthelordalert; notthisagain; scam; scienceeducation; textbooks; thisbsispathetic; youngearthcultists
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To: darbymcgill
Our original conversation was about adhominum as a basis for discrediting arguments...

Pointing out that Hovind's degree is completely phony is not an answer to his arguments (easy as it is to show that those are completely phony too).

However Hovind makes a great deal of his degree, e.g. in the appelation "Dr. Dino". IOW Hovind is putting forward an argument from authority when ever he cites his credentials, and an Ad Hominem IS an appropriate (indeed the only possible) response to an argument from authority.

981 posted on 03/14/2006 12:04:49 PM PST by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: ml1954
Seems a bit presumptuous to me.

Also in calling Morris "the founder" of modern Creation Science, without noting, for instance, the vast extent to which he ripped off George McCready Price.

982 posted on 03/14/2006 12:10:24 PM PST by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: Senator Bedfellow

The link I saw said 1996. Thinking this one event as multi events seemed not mentioned I stopped looking at that point


983 posted on 03/14/2006 12:16:01 PM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: ml1954
Did God tell him?

Well, you know how these things go. God knows you're a big fan of Morris, so one day maybe you're in your office, sharpening pencils or licking stamps or doing whatever it is you do, when the secretary buzzes in and says God is on line 3 for you....

984 posted on 03/14/2006 12:17:50 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Stultis

Also in calling Morris "the founder" of modern Creation Science, without noting, for instance, the vast extent to which he ripped off George McCready Price.

The whole site looks someone's first personal Internet home page from about a dozen years ago. The kind people created the first time they ever got Internet access and their ISP gave them a megabyte of storage space to create html pages that other people could view over the Internet.

985 posted on 03/14/2006 12:23:21 PM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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To: RunningWolf
Ah, no. He had tax troubles before, but appears not to have learned how to stay out of trouble. Not surprising, considering that he appears to be a follower of Irwin Schiff, who was himself sentenced to more that 13 years in prison for tax evasion, just last month. Article on Hovind raid.
986 posted on 03/14/2006 12:25:47 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Senator Bedfellow

...when the secretary buzzes in and says God is on line 3 for you...

...and you are not surprised because you were expecting a call.

987 posted on 03/14/2006 12:29:08 PM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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To: RunningWolf
"Trolling are you??"

Coming from you, that's rich. Your only purpose here has been to troll for responses, ever since you reincarnated yourself from your previous FReeper moniker. Or to make asinine claims like Darwin was turning from his theories in a passage where he ONLY talks about losing his faith in God. You're some deep thinker, Mordo!

"I think if you really thought it effective to 'strike a nerve' as you say, then you would do it again, but you have not what up with that??"

Because it already did what it had to, Mordo. :)
988 posted on 03/14/2006 12:42:59 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

whatever lol


989 posted on 03/14/2006 12:50:16 PM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: balrog666

Poor you!

Nah... I'm just here for the show.

990 posted on 03/14/2006 12:52:51 PM PST by Condorman (Prefer infinitely the company of those seeking the truth to those who believe they have found it.)
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To: Stultis
This doesn't correspond to any particular physical position.

How does the physical position and proximity of fossils correlate with the geological time scale? First I hear it asserted that dinosaurs and primates, if the theory of evolution is true, will not be found "in the same rocks." I am asking what "in the same rocks means." You say doesn't correspond to any particular physical position. Well ain't that handy! Do you mean to tell me geologists operate with a presupposed geological time scale that does not correlate with the physical location of fossils?

And then I am asking why the theory of evolution is bound to predict such a thing. How do we know that primates and dinosaurs were simply not designed to be found "in the same rocks?"

991 posted on 03/14/2006 1:28:49 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Condorman

The show ... just take a look at the keywords this thread has engendered.


992 posted on 03/14/2006 2:00:00 PM PST by balrog666 (Come and see my new profile! Changed yet again!)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
How does the physical position and proximity of fossils correlate with the geological time scale?

I'm pretty sure (though I would welcome correction) that by "physical position" Stultis means the location at which a fossil is found on a map. This position SORT OF matters, in that it can help pin down the range that a fossilized creature might of lived in, but it doesn't matter for determining WHEN that creature lived. What matters for determining age is DEPTH. Rock layers are layed down (usualy) one right on top of another. Lower rock layers are OLDER than those above them. This trend HAS BEEN INDEPENDENTLY CONFIRMED by radiometric dating methods. A fossil, when discovered, is assumed to be of the same age as the surrounding rock.

This website is about geological strata in the Grand Canyon. Don't bother reading the text if you don't want to, and skip to the graphic at the bottom. (I'd post the picture myself, but my HTML knowledge is pretty rudimentary.)

http://www.kaibab.org/geology/gc_layer.htm


How do we know that primates and dinosaurs were simply not designed to be found "in the same rocks?"

Maybe they were, but in that case the designer went to an AWFUL lot of trouble to trick us into thinking they were layed down over the course of eons.
993 posted on 03/14/2006 2:00:04 PM PST by gomaaa
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To: ml1954

Unless you were expecting Cthulhu.


994 posted on 03/14/2006 2:26:53 PM PST by Renderofveils (Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them until all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”)
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To: gomaaa

Thank you. I figured the principle of superposition would be the predominant assumption as to how the fossil record was formed. But what I am asking is why we would predict a find of dinsosaurs at (I presume) a lower level of the fossil record than primates. Why does the theory of evolution "predict" this?


995 posted on 03/14/2006 2:40:22 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: balch3

almost to one thousand posts! Don't quit now! Let's go Freepers!


996 posted on 03/14/2006 3:09:51 PM PST by kms61
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To: Fester Chugabrew
But what I am asking is why we would predict a find of dinsosaurs at (I presume) a lower level of the fossil record than primates. Why does the theory of evolution "predict" this?

Do you keep asking the same question repeatedly in order to get the answer you want, or do you actually not understand?

You: Why would the theory of evolution predict that primates could not "appear earlier" than dinosaurs?

Stultis: Well it does in fact prohibit that primates appear earlier than dinosaurs first appear, but only incidentally because dinosaurs just happen to first appear long before primates even begin to differentiate from insectivores.

But that, as I say, is only incidental. Because dinosaurs and primates are different lineages -- with a last common ancestor that existed long before either group differentiated -- there can, in principal at least, be whatever temporal relation between them as may be.

The restriction, to repeat, is that a group or clade cannot appear in the fossil record anywhere prior to the branching nodes that preceded it in it's own lineage. IOW, a organism cannot precede it's own ancestors. Just as your grandmother may still be alive while you are, and might even be alive after you are dead, but it is absolutely impossible for you to be alive before your grandmother is.

I can't believe I had to repeat that.

You know, if you really need to ask questions about this stuff... If you can't grasp or follow these ideas... I mean really, really basic stuff, flowing from the core idea of common ancestry and branching evolution... Then I don't see how there's any point in you having anything to say in an evolution thread. If you don't get this it's just hopeless.



I can't believe I had to reference that.
997 posted on 03/14/2006 4:14:46 PM PST by Renderofveils (Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them until all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
How does the physical position and proximity of fossils correlate with the geological time scale?

It depends. If a series of strata was originally laid down conformably, and not rearranged by geologic forces subsequently, then the location of fossils and geologic time correspond simply: The lower the fossil is in the series of strata, the older it is; a given stratigraphic layer (with the fossils it contains) is older than the stata above it and younger than the strata below it.

First I hear it asserted that dinosaurs and primates, if the theory of evolution is true, will not be found "in the same rocks."

Yes, that happens to be true. But as I explained twice now, and I thought very carefully, it is true incident to the fact that, to all appearances, dinosaurs did go extinct before primates made their first appearance. It would have been possible, even though it didn't happen to turn out that way, for dinosaurs to have continued in existence long enough to be around at the same time as primates.

As I'm now explaining for the second time there may be any particular temporal relationship between organisms that belong to distinct lineages. The only inherent prohibition is that an organism may not appear before it's own ancestors.

So, to put this together, it is not absolutely prohibited (even if by now HIGLY unlikely) that primates and dinosaurs might be found in the same rocks, but that is only allowed if be because dinosaurs appear "too late," that is if it turns out that some dinosaurs managed to stick around much longer than currently/previously known.

It is at the same time absolutely prohibited that dinosaurs and primates appear in the same rocks if it be because primates appear TOO EARLY. If primates were to show up during the time period that dinosaurs are currently known to have lived, they would then ALSO be appearing before their own ancestors, which is what is prohibited by evolution.

This distinction is academic because, from the way that dinosaur fossils gradually "peter out" in number and diversity near their end, and the abruptness with which they finally disappear from the record entirely, it's pretty clear they really did go extinct when they appear to. Still it is a real distinction based on the principles which, however elementary, I feel I need in your case to repeat yet again:

  1. a taxon (a species or larger group) cannot appear before its own ancestors, that is before branching nodes in its own lineage, but

  2. taxons on different lineages, that is where the last common ancestor they share appeared well before either taxon itself first differentiated, may have any temporal relationship between them as the case may be.

I am asking what "in the same rocks means." You say doesn't correspond to any particular physical position. Well ain't that handy!

Actually it's not particularly "handy". It would be much easier for geologists if strata always remained conformable and undisturbed. However, handy or not, it's just the way the world works that strata do get overturned and rearranged. I mean there's simply no doubt about that: unless you want to argue that grass and trees sometimes grow upside down; that rain can fall "up" (from inside the earth?) and leave splatters, mudcracks, etc, on the underside of strata; that animals can do the same thing with their footprints; that the laws of gravity can be reversed so that streams flow upside down; etc. There are many, many methods of determining the ways that strata have been rearranged. Obviously the fossils they carry must be rearranged along with them.

The rest of your message I'm not sure what you're complaining about. Well, in truth I'm not sure about that with respect to any of your message, but I hope I've been patient.

998 posted on 03/14/2006 4:16:27 PM PST by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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coming up ...


999 posted on 03/14/2006 4:21:14 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: longshadow

1000


1,000 posted on 03/14/2006 4:21:31 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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