Torture's Long Shadow

Washington Post ^ | Sunday, December 18, 2005 | Vladimir Bukovsky

[owen_osh]

CAMBRIDGE, England

One nasty morning Comrade Stalin discovered that his favorite pipe was missing. Naturally, he called in his henchman, Lavrenti Beria, and instructed him to find the pipe. A few hours later, Stalin found it in his desk and called off the search. "But, Comrade Stalin," stammered Beria, "five suspects have already confessed to stealing it."

This joke, whispered among those who trusted each other when I was a kid in Moscow in the 1950s, is perhaps the best contribution I can make to the current argument in Washington about legislation banning torture and inhumane treatment of suspected terrorists captured abroad. Now that President Bush has made a public show of endorsing Sen. John McCain's amendment, it would seem that the debate is ending. But that the debate occurred at all, and that prominent figures are willing to entertain the idea, is perplexing and alarming to me. I have seen what happens to a society that becomes enamored of such methods in its quest for greater security; it takes more than words and political compromise to beat back the impulse.

[owen_osh]

This is an interesting article. Read the whole thing.

[owen_osh]

There's a lot of pro-torture folks around here. Does anyone disagree?

[dirtboy]

There's a lot of pro-torture folks around here. Does anyone disagree?

Pro torture?

I'm not in favor of torture.

But I also disagree with revealing to al Qaeda what interrogation techniques will not be used on their captives. That would be like telling Hitler prior to D-Day what beaches he didn't need to defend.

The political discussion over torture should have been done quietly and behind the scenes, in a wartime context, instead of as a way to score political points.

[mrsmith]

This is an excellent example of using "feelings" instead of intellect.
Gee, torture used for reasons other than to extract good information, doesn't extract good information. I'm shocked LOL!

Torture has many, many bad qualities and uses. But one reason it has been used since the beginning of time is it can be effective at extracting good information.

[AmericanChef]

I'm in favor of torture, or any other treatment or procedure that's effective. If it's not effective, then I'm not for it.

Having said that, the U.S already had laws against torture. If we feel torture will work against someone out there, and if the situation warrants, I'm sure we'll find a way to keep it under the radar.

[Mi-kha-el]

What's the point. You have alrady labeled those who disagree as pro-torture. It's like saying that those who support war do not love peace.

[TChris]

There's a lot of pro-torture folks around here. Does anyone disagree?

There may well be. I am not one of them.

However, I also disagree with the McCain amendment. Strongly. For these reasons:

1. Torture is already forbidden, so the amendment is unnecessary.

2. It effectively grants the enemies of the United States some of the same constitutional protections as a citizen. This will absolutely become an unbearable burden in time of war. No country can sustain the number of trials this law will generate.

   Every detainee and prisoner of war will want a lawyer and a trial. Care to hazard a guess at how that will affect our ability to win the war?

3. The word "degrading" can and will be defined and used in such a way as to prohibit any action of the US military. (Isn't being handcuffed and marched out of your house degrading?)

[owen_osh]

Torture has many, many bad qualities and uses. But one reason it has been used since the beginning of time is it can be effective at extracting good information.

I think the author of the article would disagree with you. I think he would say that torture has been used since the beginning of time because people are lazy.

[The_Republican]

I am against all toruture and granting of rights to secret police that they promise never to misuse.

Had Govt. NOT allowed people on 'Terror Watchlist' to enter the country (why would you let anyone who you suspect is a terrorist to enter the country anyway), 9/11 would not have happenned.

There is a strong possibility that Hitlary Klionton would be next Commander in Chief. She views conservatives to be just as dangerous to the world as any terrorist.

Bubba used the Govt. agencies to spy and destroy many Conservatives. Now that they have extended powers, it should make their job even easier.

[owen_osh]

This is an excellent example of using "feelings" instead of intellect.

It's not so much a question of feelings vs. intellect as it is principles vs. laziness.

Do principles not matter anymore?

So much for the shining city on a hill...

[thepizzalady]

"...There's a lot of pro-torture folks around here. Does anyone disagree?..."

I disagree. I disagree with John McCain's bill. There are definitions of torture that would condemn a parent from calling a time out for their children. There are definitions of torture which define actions imposed upon our military in boot camp. I've had jobs which would fit into the definitions of torture. I don't consider myself pro-torture. I do consider myself PRO-Self Defense! And I do believe in punishing the guilty. And I do believe in interrogating the enemy. I do not believe the enemy should be granted the same rights as citizens.

I would not go around shooting people for chuckles, or for disagreeing with my beliefs, but I wouldn't hesitate defending against someone threatening my life or the lives of my family.

The U.S. is in the position of defending us against people who are threatening our family. The terrorists just want to wipe us off the face of the earth. And so far we are preventing them from achieving that end.

Does anyone realize that passing more laws does not prevent anything? It does not turn bad people into good people or vise versa? It only encompasses a greater number of people within the new definition. Are the terrorists going to lay down their methods of torture because of McCain's bill?

These same people cannot bring themselves to admit that holding hostages with the sole purpose of distributing videos of the slow decapitation of those hostages in order to cause more fear and terror in the hearts of their enemies.

[mrsmith]

Duh, I know he would disagree with me. But nothing he said even disputes the fact- it can get information, good information.

Sure it can be used by incompetent torturers, used from laziness, used merely to terrorize the population, used to extract untrue confessions. There are a lot of faults with it as I said.

But it can be used to get good information- and always has.

Notice even McCain admits it can, and should be used. You know it would work on you, and I know it would work on me.

[mrsmith]

I was an idealist in college too. That was a long, long time ago.

If you can't tell an emotion-based argument from a logical one- and recognize an unsupported conclusion- perhaps you should transfer to a liberal arts major.