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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Glancing at this map, I see a few problems.



It does not reference (Mongol) Tamerlane's conquest of Iran in the late 1300s. The Iranians achieved their independence, IIRC, under a Turk named Ishamael about a hundred years later.

And the Manchu, a Mongol tribe, conquered China in 1600 or so.
16 posted on 01/10/2005 8:09:38 PM PST by swilhelm73 (Like the archers of Agincourt, ... the Swiftboat Veterans took down their own haughty Frenchman.)
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To: swilhelm73

Tamerlane wasn't a Mongol-he was a Turk. Initially he worked through a nominal Quan who was a Chinggisid, acting as his vizier. Later in his career, he dropped the pretense. Based in Samarkand (where he's buried), Tamerlane, a Moslem made war on the Golden Horde (Mongol and Moslem), the Ottoman Turks (ditto), and anybody else he could find. He died marching on China. He is also known as Timur i Link (approximation), or Timur the Lame (bad leg)


29 posted on 01/10/2005 8:41:54 PM PST by PzLdr
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To: swilhelm73
There's a lot wrong with the map, just dealing with the Chinggisids:

(1) The dates on the Golden Horde are wrong. Central Russia fell in the winter of 1237-1238. Kiev fell to Batu in 1240. The date is twenty years off.

(2)The dynasty in Persia (founded by Hulegu in 1258 was the IL-KHANATE, or lesser Khanate (he was the brother of two Qua Quans-Mongke and Kublai)

(3) The map omits the White Horde, which was situated where the eastern portion of the Golden Horde appears. Initially ruled by Batu's brother, Buri, it became allied, under Tokhtamesh with Tamerlane in a war with the Golden Horde. After Tokhtamesh won, and united those two hordes, he fought a series of wars with Tamerlane, resulting in the destruction of the Golden Horde, and its splintering into the Crimean tartars, who became vassals of the Ottomans, and the Khanates of Kazan and Sibir. It also led to the rise of Muscovy to a dominant position in Russia.

(4)The map omits the Khanate of Quaidu, grandson of Uggedai, and perpetual thorn in the side of Kublai. It would appear north of, and overlapping with (depending on who was winning) with the Chaggatid Khanate.

(5) The dates for the Yuan dynasty are wrong. Mongke died in China around 1259-1260. The struggle over the succession between Kublai and his younger brother Arik Boka lasted several years. The conquest of the Sung was not completed until around 1279.

The Manchus were not Mongols. They were a Tungus people,like the Jurchids who had founded the Chin dynasty in Northern China.
40 posted on 01/10/2005 9:10:16 PM PST by PzLdr
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To: swilhelm73
Two other corrections to the map:

(1)The area shown as where the Mongols were united in 1206 was the appanage given to Temuchin's youngest son, Tolui, along with the bulk of the Mongol Army (Mongol tradition to do both). Tolui died before the Quiriltai of 1234 that elected Uggedai as Qa Quan, and Jochi had predeceased Temuchin.

(2) There were two separate Mongol invasions of Japan, and both were destroyed by typhoons, which the Japanese then referred to as KAMIKAZE-divine wind- a term they resurrected during World War II to describe their suicide pilots.
138 posted on 01/11/2005 4:32:07 AM PST by PzLdr
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